Lucy Bolan

Welcome to the CMO Chapters Podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing

executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes

of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever evolving landscape of business stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the

brand okay so i am delighted to have the fabulous gabrielle dolan on i think we're now on episode one for the cmo chapters podcast so gabrielle welcome i'm so excited to be speaking to you, Lucy. I can't wait.

Yeah, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Really excited to have you on, actually, because, I mean, I feel like I've known you for, I want to say, I don't know now, six months, maybe, I think about, on and off.

Yes, hasn't been long. No, it hasn't been too long.

Gabrielle Dolan

It feels longer than six months.

Lucy Bolan

It does. It does indeed, in a good way. I've got a lot of questions. We've got a little bit to get through because, I mean, as we know, you've obviously written a book recently on story intelligence. So I've got a

bit there that I want to sort of dive into. But before we get into it, can you please introduce

Gabrielle Dolan

yourself? Well, my name is Gabrielle Dolan, as you said in the intro. Most people call me Rel. My little sister could never pronounce my name and she'd call me Gabriel. So Rel has stuck.

But I've spent the last 21 years of my career teaching business people how to communicate more effectively through stories. So prior to that, I worked at National Australia Bank. I worked in senior leadership roles and change management roles towards the end. And it was think storytelling is something people need to learn how to do better so I thought what the hell maybe

I could be that person to teach people having never run a business before or never taught storytelling before but I had actually done a lot of designing and delivering of leadership program so I knew I could design and deliver a leadership program around storytelling and yeah, that was 21 years ago. I thought I would, you know, just see if it worked out. If it didn't work out, I'd go back and get another job in corporate.

It'd be fair to say it's worked out.

Lucy Bolan

I think it's worked out really well. I mean, you've, what, 20 years now, 21 years?

Gabrielle Dolan

It's 21 years and counting. So, yeah, I worked in corporate for 20 years. And so now I've been out. But, yeah, clearly I still work very, very closely with corporate.

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

So why do you think, why storytelling? I mean, I'm just trying to think because, I mean, from my perspective, I feel like I'm only really getting into this now, if I'm being completely honest, since I've certainly got to know you

and obviously from reading your book and, you know, following you on LinkedIn. But let's go back 20 years ago. I can imagine storytelling back then. Was that a bit of a new sort of, oh, my God, what is this?

Gabrielle Dolan

The typical reaction I got was, what the hell is storytelling got to do with business? It was like, ooh, once upon a time. And people just, the amount of times people said to me, hang on a minute,

you left your corporate job, well-paid job, to teach people storytelling. Like, are you mad? And so, yes, that was very much the general reaction back then. When I was still at NAB and I sort of had this feeling,

you know, I just, I was in change management roles, right? So, you know, you're going out to the business units and you're explaining why we need to change. And of course, every business unit says, no, we don't need that because we're special and blah, blah, blah. Everyone says it.

And what I found is when I shared a story, and look, it wasn't a magical silver bullet, but it sort of put people's defences down a bit and they sort of at least listened. And I would, you know, often get, well, I guess that makes sense or I never thought about it that

way. And I started to reflect that it's when I shared a story that got through. And then I actually started to notice around me that I would see people speak

on stage and go, they're brilliant presenters. And then I was thinking, the reason they're brilliant presenters is because they're sharing stories. So I sort of started to notice the great presenters were sharing stories, the brilliant leaders that I wanted to work with were sharing

stories. Like we always know great salespeople share stories and great teachers share stories. So I had this inkling that it was a skill. And then I came across this book written by Stephen Denning.

I think it was called the Organisational Guide to Storytelling. And he was an ex-World Bank. He was an ex-senior exec at the World Bank. And I just seriously read that book.

And I was thinking, I knew it. I knew it. I knew there was something in this. And the fact that he was an ex-senior executive at the world bank i'm thinking if someone in that position is writing a book on the power of storytelling then there's absolutely

something in this so um yeah so i like i said 21 years ago i thought what the hell i'm gonna give this a crack the um our kids were two and five at the time and i just seriously thought if it doesn't work out,

I'll have a couple of years home with the kids and I'll just go back and get another job.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good on you. Good on you. And it was a risk, obviously, that paid off. So here we are. Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

It was a risk. Yes. You know, it's funny. It didn't feel like a risk at the time. I'm not sure why. I think because I just had the attitude, well, I'll give it a go and if it doesn't work out you know I'm home you know a

year or two with the kids and then I'll just go back and get another job I had no no I knew I could come back and get another job so that wasn't an issue so it didn't overly feel like a risk but you know I mean it was in hindsight we

we decided me my husband collectively decided to reduce our income by 60% because I was you know earning more money than and that the so but yeah that

was a joint decision.

Lucy Bolan

So when I look at someone yourself, I mean, I see you as a bit of the guru when it comes to all things stories. So, I mean, is this something naturally that you've been really good at that you've, I guess, identified yourself with and gone, you know what,

as you said earlier, okay, there's something in this and off I go? Or have you yourself had to also, like, you know, really, I guess, hone in on your own craft and keep developing that as well.

Gabrielle Dolan

A bit of both. My mates that I went to school with and I still keep in contact with, so they've known me since I was 12. And, you know, they just think it's so appropriate that

I'm doing what I do because they would say, you were the one that was always telling the funny stories at the pub. But it was like one of my oldest mates, we lived together for a while and something would happen during

the day at home and I would just start chuckling to myself. And she goes, you were going to retell this story at the pub tonight and it's going to be so much more funnier than what had actually happened. I go, yeah, I know.

Because I'm kind of, so there was a bit of that. But the reality is we're all storytellers. We actually all tell stories. And some people are absolutely better at telling stories than others, just naturally, like just naturally.

You know, some people are naturally better at tennis than others. Okay. So that's a given, but everyone can get better at it. So yes, I have over the last 21 years gone through, figured out why, what works and what

doesn't work. And sometimes when you tell a joke and you could tell a joke and everyone laughs and you can tell a joke, you know, to the different people next week this and you think it's the same way but no one laughs and and there'll be elements that you forgot to say or

didn't say or was in the delivery and so it's the same with the story there's there's things that you i can i can hear a story and people go i don't know why it didn't work and i'll go this is why it

didn't work and so it's teaching people the process that hopefully a repeatable framework that will increase their chances of their stories landing and being effective.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. And on that, why are stories so effective? Like, you know, why is it that when we listen to a story, and I mean, you've got a job doing this, why is it so important?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So there's a whole heap of research done by neuroscientists, very smart people, that say that when our brains hear a story, it taps into emotion and the brain processes emotion different to logic in two

different ways. So first of all, we actually make decisions based on emotion and business need to realise this because business just goes, oh, we're not making decisions based on emotion.

It's on logic and blah, blah, blah. We always make decisions based on emotion. It's like, you know, whether it's buying the latest iPhone or a new pair of shoes or a house or buying or working for a company or working for you or, you know, in a job interview, deciding.

People are walking out going, I reckon, I think we could really work with them. I think they'd be a really great fit. And that's their emotional decisions. Now, yes, it needs to logically make sense. So you still, I'm not saying you don't have the logic,

you'd still need the logic there, but we're human beings and all human beings make decisions based on emotion. So a story taps into emotion and what else, what the brain also does with emotion,

it stores it in the long-term part of our brain. So if a story, a well-told story, not all stories, if it taps into emotion, now I'm not saying emotional, like it's going to be really sad or anything, but it taps into emotion and therefore you remember the stories. So,

and look, when I speak to people, we sort of know this. Like you go, yeah, like people go, I remember I saw this great presenter and he told a story and they can retell me the story and I go how long ago was

this and I go that would have been over 10 years ago and I go what else what else can you remember from that presentation nothing nothing except the story so that's why stories are really powerful

on several things it helps people understand the message um it helps people remember the message because they've remembered the story and ultimately they can retell the story without losing its meaning.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. So I was reading the, cue the book, the fabulous story intelligence here last night and I found it so interesting because as we know, we're in a world of AI now.

And I think something that you mentioned in that book, which I really resonated with was we are in a world of distrust now. Absolutely. Where naturally there's so many of us out there that see so much content on LinkedIn

or we hear stories and we go, yeah, no, that didn't really happen. Or LinkedIn or, you know, AI wrote that. So, you know, the book that you recently wrote, I mean, God, it's just so

interesting. And I loved all these individual different stories in there as well. And the exercise that you did around, you know, did AI write it or did I? I think what you did i could tell i won't spoil it but anyway so i mean and i love the analogy

as well when you said batman and robin it's kind of like you know your story batman and then robin see it as ai so i guess my question is you know if you were speaking to say marketers because i mean

there's going to be marketers listening to this how can they best would you say use storytelling when they say it's a CMO when they're in their role they're often talking generally about a brand and promoting that brand

story how best can they perhaps use it more so internally even when they're

Gabrielle Dolan

working with their own team yeah so the vast majority of the work I do Lucy is I go into organizations and how and teach the leaders how to tell stories. And it's normally around the values or the brand or the culture,

but you know, it's whatever you call it. It's like, this is what we value. These are the behaviors we expect. This is what we want to be known for. And my focus is on personal stories. So they didn't happen at work because I think they're the most powerful and they're the most,

but they're the most underutilized. So a lot of the times when companies talk about their values, they talk about, you know, work-related stories. So if they, you know, if one of their values is exceptional customer service, they'll share stories of their employees delivering great

customer service, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And I call them professional stories, but you can add on the public story. So going back to your question, if you've got a CMO

or CEO or any senior exec, and they want to talk, they're either talking internally to their people, as in this is the behaviour we want, this is the culture we want, this is, you know, the values we value.

Or even if it's external people, like you're trying to recruit people. And like, seriously, I've been sharing these stories in a job interview, for example, because as we know, or as you would know, you know, it's you're selling the job as much as the people are trying to want the job.

They're having a decision on whether they work for you as well and it's an emotional decision remember that so I would say to any any executive that's trying to communicate values is first of all list the values and it doesn't necessarily need to be

only the company values it could be your own values as well and what people tend to do initially is go, oh, we value integrity. We value transparency. We value collaboration.

And it's just words, right? Words, words, words, words. And you're like, seriously, you throw a blanket over every corporate organizational values and 95% of them are

exactly the same, just worded differently. So that's where we start. But then I go, well, what does that mean to you? So you've just said we value collaboration i would go well what does that mean to you and

and i say to people what does it mean to you personally because the straight away they go well you know that the team works towards a you know shared goal blah blah blah again like what

does that mean so i keep asking them personally and you would be surprised how many senior execs have i say what does it mean to you personally? And they'll have a think about it and they'll say something.

And I go, what else does it mean to you personally? And they'll go, ooh, good point. You've really, yeah, you've put me on the spot here. I haven't thought about it before. So the real challenge, before we even get to the story,

is what does collaboration really mean to you personally? And ask yourself. And then you'll drill down and instead of saying things like working as a team, there'll be elements like seeking everyone's feedback or at least listening to

people's feedback or concerns about whatever it is, right? And then we find a story. And then, so my advice is you find a personal story and the really powerful ones. Let's just say there's an

example about it's actually seeking and listening to people's feedback is the messy. I would say, think of a personal story as it didn't happen at work when you

didn't do that. A lot of people go, well, why would I share a story when I didn't do it? Because sharing stories about when you didn't do it, and it could be like, you know, you're on holidays with friends and someone suggested, oh, it wouldn't go that way. And

you go, no, no, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And then you've gone that way and, you know, crap happened, right? It can be as simple as that. It doesn't have to be these big major stories. And then when you're sharing the story, of course,

you're getting across the fact that you've either regretted that decision or you've learned a really valuable lesson and things like that, which now means that value is really important to you.

I know that value is really important to you.

Lucy Bolan

I think, and I find as well myself, because, I mean, I personally, you know, practice this myself, and I find it's the bridge isn't it it's the leap between the personal story and then getting it across to exactly what it means from a business perspective

the commercials and I think as well if you get that right if you nail it then it's going to really pack a punch and resonate yeah I've also personally listened to a lot of I'm gonna my

friends are gonna hate this but I've got friends I'm still in the go oh my gosh this happened the other day oh it was hilarious and they'll be on for 30 minutes about this bloody story and you're like my god like it can't be that funny and actually you've lost me

you lost me at 10 minutes actually so there's a bit of an art with it isn't there and i'm sure part of what you're doing is obviously getting people to tailor how to structure the story yeah

Gabrielle Dolan

the one of a common mistake is that people their stories just go way too long. So way too long. My advice is your story should be roughly around about 60 to 90 seconds. You can tell some brilliant stories in 30 seconds,

but if your stories are going two minutes or longer, they're just too long. And there's a real discipline in getting your story succinct. And part of the process I teach is if you're really clear on that single message, really clear on the single message, then that

will determine what information you put in your story and what, and most importantly, what, what you leave out. Wow. And sometimes people get full, you know, they, they telling the story and

everyone's listening. So they start adding more and they start adding more. And it was just like, just, you know, and I think the more senior people get, the more inclined to do this so it's um you know there's the saying i often say you didn't

get any funnier you just got more senior it's the same with your stories your stories didn't get any more engaging you just got more senior and people are politely nodding when they're really thinking

Lucy Bolan

get to the point so true so true so in this market i mean obviously as a recruiter i mean I do a lot of work with marketers who are, I mean, as we know, there's a lot of people out there looking for work right now, unfortunately.

And it's a really competitive story. And, you know, I see a lot of CVs where we've got fantastic key achievements. I mean, the CVs look great. But, and I said this to so many people all the time, know your narrative, know how to, you know, tell your story, how to, you know, articulate yourself.

But there's a lot that don't. And I don't know if that comes down to confidence, but how can, how can these people listening, how can they use storytelling to better

themselves, especially in an interview as well? Because I'm sure this would be very helpful.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, job interviews are the perfect opportunity to share stories. Like, you know, often, you know, when I work with people and like, I'm going, I share a story in a presentation with your team and they go what what you just start your story

and it's like well yes you do but you clear on the message job interviews are the perfect perfect opportunity because you know um i assume people still follow the bi process do they the

behavioral event you know tell us a time when yeah the style technique situation yeah yeah so what i what i would say if i was going advising people going for a job interview. The point is you don't want to use the job interview

to regurgitate your entire CV or resume. You've got the job interview. So I think the fact that you've got a job interview, you're ticking quite a few of the technical boxes or the skill or the

experience boxes. I would go and be very clear on what values that the company, look at the company values and what they value. I think have a good idea of what values or behaviors would be

expected in the role as well. And then I would go through the process of having both personal story and a professional story to communicate them. So again, if, you know, one of the values they

talk about is collaboration, I would have a professional story of when you've done that and potentially a personal story. Now you may not not you may not share both but i would be prepared

for that because they could sort of go well why is collaboration important to you now that's a perfect time to go and share their personal story personal stories are really valuable to if you're

lacking a little bit of industry experience so you might not have or you're quite young so you know, if this is your first or second job, you're not going to have as many work-related stories as, you know, someone in their 40s or 50s.

But you've probably got these amazing experiences, you know, when you're in, you know, Girl Guides or Scouts or, you know, going on a school excursion.

And you did. So you think about those lateral stories that still demonstrate, they still demonstrate collaboration or they still demonstrate risk making and you're sharing the personal stories.

You could, you know what, you can even share stories about your parents or your growing up that show that this, this is part of you. This is, you were raised with this value because your parents instilled it in you.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, it's so true. And it's really funny. We're talking about this. So I, I've got my parents visiting at the moment from the UK, which is fun, fun and games. And I was chatting

to my dad actually last night and I said, oh, I'm interviewing, you know, Gabrielle. And he, you know, he's like, who's Gabrielle? Anyway, we went through the whole background, et cetera, storytelling. And he said, it's really funny, you know, he said, because he used to be quite

senior at British Airways Space and he was there for about 40 odd years. And he got his last job, which was overseeing, I think, customer service. Because he mentioned in that job interview that when he was younger,

he saw how important customer service was, working in his dad's DIY shop, where they were measuring nails and scales and all that kind of stuff.

And the HR director actually said to him afterwards, oh, you got that job because we love that story and how much customer service and how much you valued that as a child. And I said, well, there you go. You know, this is why it's so important.

And I think you're right. You're so right. It makes it, you know, when people tell me stories that are articulate, they get to the point, you know, they resonate with exactly what we're talking about.

You know, it really packs a punch. You know, it's so important.

Gabrielle Dolan

That's a great example. So it's a great example because what a story does is, I want to go back aristotle's model of influence where he said the three most important things when you're trying to influence people and you look at a job interview that is

the ultimate you're trying to influence people to hire you um you need logos ethos and pathos which which is logic personal credibility and emotional connection and what we tend to do with a cb or

is we go on logic oh i've done this before, these are the results. And that the approach with the STAR technique, where this was the situation, this is the task, and this is the result.

And that's all very logical, right? So I'm not saying you don't need that, it's logical. But the real, the most important thing when it comes to logic, personal credibility, or emotional connection, is credibility and emotional connection.

So what the story has done, your dad's story about measuring nails when he was a kid working in his dad's factory, it's created that emotional connection. We spoke about before, a good story taps into emotion, so it's already done the emotional

connection. What it's given him is credibility. Now it's not credibility in everything, but it's credibility in the message of he takes customer service serious.

So he's talking about that and it's through the story that builds credibility. It's only through the story that builds credibility. Because every single person going for that job interview, if they knew customer service was a big thing, they would all go,

customer service is really important to me. I'm really behind. I think the customers, and they would say it all, but sharing the story of him working in his dad's factory gives him credibility

that words alone will not do.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like a reference there and then in itself, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

I guess part of this podcast as well, I mean, I try and, you know, if anything, speak to people like yourself or the leaders, et cetera, to educate, you know, the next generation of marketers coming up on how to,

I guess, if they want to become a leader, how to better themselves, you know. One thing that does concern me and that I do see a lot is there's and I'm going to say maybe it's the COVID era to a degree you know there's this generation coming through

that unfortunately I find perhaps aren't as confident articulating or talking about who they are or what they're doing is there any advice for those guys that you can tap into like I mean

what would you say to these you know these, these younger generation coming through, like how they can better start to at least, you know, listen and take note of what you're talking about when it comes to storytelling?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So I think you're right. Like, like some people don't like selling themselves.

Lucy Bolan

They don't.

Gabrielle Dolan

It's like people often go to me, oh, I'd like to tell a story, but I don't want to brag. And I go, okay, well, don't brag. Like we don't, we don't want to be the bragger. well, don't brag. Like we don't want to be the bragger, but sharing stories about what you learned from that, the lesson I learned from that was the importance of whatever. That's a really

good way to share a story because it's not feeling like it's bragging. I love the advice from our respective mate, Jack Phillips. And she sort of said, when people go, well, what are your strengths?

What are you good at? And literally saying, well, people have told me that i'm very good at this so that it becomes like oh i'm good at this well well this is what people say about me people told me i'm good

so i love that technique i know i know that's not a story but you could do something like that and back it up with the story so people have told me that i'm you know very good at collaborating and making decisions, really being decided with decisions.

Okay, so share a story that does that. And again, they can be really powerful. And the stories can be both the personal stories and all the professional stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well, especially when I've got clients within the world of HR, you know, chief people officers that are looking at, you know, we talk about now how actual employees are the brand advocates now, I mean you're probably going well

we knew that from way back when this is you know that they're the storytellers within the business but then you go on these websites and it's about us or it's our story and it's not their story at all because they're using a load of

jargon like we are innovative and we are collaborative and it's all blah blah blah so I mean what would you advise me to these people like I mean you know I mean I'm thinking if I was in a HR director role, I'd be going, right, let's get storytelling people.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, a couple of things I would say to those. First of all, as we've spoken about, storytelling is an absolute skill, right? It's a skill. And so if you're in, you know, whether you're a CEO or chief people officer or whatever,

and you're going, okay, we want our people to be better at storytelling, you've got to teach them how to do it. And I know I might be biased because this is my job, but you can't just go, oh, start telling stories and not teach them how to do it because I've seen that done and it's

absolutely setting them up for failure. And then, and then the same, you know, senior exec will go, oh, we tried storytelling. It was like, yeah, you tried storytelling without learning how to do it

properly, which means you were always going to fail. So it's an absolute skill. You might have seen some articles come out the last six months or so

from the Wall Street Journal about biggest increase in job titles has got storyteller in the title. They did all this research on LinkedIn. Now, part of me goes, I told you so.

I knew storytelling was a skill. But part of me is really concerned that they're thinking storytelling, there's now a storytelling department.

And you know what it is, it's going to be the marketers. The marketers are now saying they're chief storytelling officers. My concern is that we almost outsource it because like you said, the best brand ambassadors

any organisation has is their employees. A hundred percent. You know, whether they're the front, you know, whether they're the leaders sharing stories internally or whether they're the

sales people sharing stories externally to clients or potential clients or they're the customer facing people right it's how they share your employees are the best brand ambassadors so i i see the companies that implement storytelling really well yes they train their leaders and they

train their senior leaders and they train the marketers and comms people but they train the marketers and comms people, but they train other people as well within the organization because learning how to tell, and you know what, learning how to tell a story well

is an absolute career skill. So I always say like, why wouldn't you just give, invest your employees and give them that skill? This is a skill that is going to benefit for them for the rest of their and even in their personal life as well it's like invest in them and don't just

look that the marketing department is gonna come up with stories then other people share and that and that's when exactly right Lucy you're listening them and yeah oh my god could you put any more jargon into that and you know what

most of the time it's not a story it's like and I see that all the time on websites it's our story or our stories. And I get in and have a look and I go, none of them were stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

You know, there may be case studies or they're just not stories.

Lucy Bolan

No, no, exactly. Yeah, I've seen it myself actually a lot. And I think it's since our last chat, you know, I've become a lot more wiser to it as well. Those people out there that, you know, they've been doing this,

but they've got the top three stories and they keep regurgitating the good old top three stories on that conveyor belt. Off they pop. Because that can be hard trying to constantly come up with new ones, you know,

like that are still going to have the same impact.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, it can be. And, you know, I'm going to answer this two ways. If you're a leader and you know you've got a story and it's almost become part of your signature story,

you would use it all the time. Now, the problem is when it gets the same audience, hears it again and again and again, everyone's going, oh, my God, if I hear this story one more time. But, you know, there's, I mean, and I can give you an example too

of a leader that shared a great signature story and she shares it all the time. And a lot of people have, in fact, I might give it to you because I haven't given an example. and this will talk about some of the things were spoken about how

you can communicate values that give you credibility so I worked you know was organizing or working with an organization that you know they wanted

to teach their leaders how to communicate the values through stories so great winning her name was Anne and she said one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of their company values so went through that

process what does it mean what does it mean what does it mean maybe really think about it and she she said what it really means to me is doing the right thing all the time and not just when it suits us so the story she shared and I

shared the story and then we might just unpack why it works is um in the early 60s my dad was a professional swimmer and he reached the point in his career that he actually tried out for

the national swim team. And on the day of the meet, he was doing his race and he got to the end and did the tumble turn and he misjudged and he missed the wall. Now this was in the early 60s. So there was no census back then. There was judges, but with all that splashing and kicking, he knew

they wouldn't know if he touched the wall or not. So he had to make a split second decision. Does he go back and touch the wall or does he just keep swimming? Now he decided to go back and touch the wall. Now, you don't really recover from a race when you do that.

And Dad didn't. He never won. There was probably a whole lot of other reasons, but he never made the national swim team. And growing up as a kid, I would often hear Dad share that story and people would ask him, have you ever regretted going back and touching the wall?

And he'd always say, I've never regretted that because if I didn't go back and touch the wall, I'd have to spend the rest of my life knowing I did the wrong thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value, doing the right thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value doing the

right thing. It is only a matter of time before we come across our own go back and touch the wall moment. And I invite you to consider what my dad would do. Now, I want to put it there for,

go back to a couple of things. When Anne shares, every time someone comes and works for Anne, she shares that story. So it's sort of part of her personal

induction program because she has told me, I know the impact it has. I know the heavy lifting it does. She said that story demonstrates to them my leadership style. So she's not a, she's not a

win at all cost leader. She is, if we do the right thing and still don't achieve the outcome, I'll have your back. So she just shares that story every single time she's been on podcast and shared the story she's been on

panels around leadership and shares the story it's become part of her signature story we talked about you know logic uh credibility and connection so again can you see let's just say you were in a job

interview and she was interviewing you and you were talking about you know integrity and doing the right thing and she could say you all know that that's really important to us blah blah blah words but by

sharing the story I now truly believe and trust that she she delivers on that that that is her leadership but it's only through the story I get credibility now of course you do have to deliver

on that that's the other thing you've got to deliver on that but yeah that's a customer story that she has shared like this was 12 years ago I did the work with her and she still shares it in the last time I caught up with her was probably about this time last year okay

I said are you still sharing your dad's story and she went absolutely and then she said her dad had passed away like a three months prior and she had to do the eulogy and she shared that story so I was like oh that's very so lovely so so

if you've got a story that works, keep sharing it, but you also want to be on the lookout for other stories and that could potentially replace something like that or you might be just sharing a story about something else

and you need multiple ways, multiple stories. But part of what I do, Lucy, is once I help people realise it's not the bigger heart moments, it's not the big you know it's not the bigger heart moments it's not the climbing mount ever

it's not the recovering from cancer type stories it's just the little day-to-day ones once people realize that they will something will happen and they'll go oh oh that's a great story about making

assumptions or that's a great story around collaboration and they just start to use those

Lucy Bolan

stories yeah i love it and that story in particular i think really does hone in on you know I think coming down to someone's authentic you know their traits very much trusted um and and and you know to to your point you know when she's telling that

story she's saying you're like you can make mistakes but as long as you're honest and you know it's that that honesty and I'm just saying you know I'd be going well if I won that I would have won that race and I hadn't touched the wall and so actually I feel like a fraud, you know, so I'd rather do that.

It's doing the right thing, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

And the other reason why that story works too is we spoke about this. It's a story about her dad. And when she tells it, what you see in her is pride. Like she's really proud of her dad. And so you know she was raised this way.

This is not just a company value she's towing the line to. You truly believe that this is important to her.

Lucy Bolan

I love it. So my next question, we're going to wrap things up but what is next for ral dolan i mean how many books have you done how eight is this going to be the

Gabrielle Dolan

last book well i said the last book was going to be the last book on storytelling but um you know i just felt comp well i felt compelled to write this one because people kept asking will story

will ai replace storytelling it's like God, no, it won't. And, you know, can you use AI to help with your stories? And my first response was, no, you cannot. That's cheating. That's not real.

That's not keeping it real. But anyway, yeah, you can. So what's next for me at the moment is I'm just marketing the book. I think this book, it's 20 years of my everything. And I do believe this will be my last storytelling book I write.

So I just, I think it's timely. I think it's relevant. I'm just on a mission to let as many people know about the power of storytelling and the book. So that's my focus at the moment.

On a personal level, I did turn 59 a few weeks ago, and I'm on a mission to be the fitness, healthiest, strongest I've ever been by the time I'm 60 so oh I love it yeah pumping a lot of weight good on you

Lucy Bolan

that's so good I feel like that now and I mean god it's it's kind of like mid-40s I'm like okay next year next year we'll get to it but good on you well I've been reading this and I think it's really weird honestly I think it's great and I'm really not just saying that I think for anyone

who's a leader I don't think you know it's and what I love about it I think it relates to anyone whether you're marketing or not you know anyone know, I think if you want to harness yourself, how you're going to be better even in like personal life, the barbecue conversation,

like really, you know, I think it's, it packs the punch for sure.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, well, there was even, I mean, because I do believe this is a life skill as well. I mean, there's a whole chapter in that on, you know, what if you've got to give, you know, a 21st speech or a best man speech or a eulogy, just have stories, just have stories

for them.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I've really enjoyed catching up. Thank you so much, Riel. It's been absolutely awesome. Love it. Love the energy. And honestly, I think there's going to be so much in this that people are going to go, ah, right, okay, that's how you do it. Right. The secret formula. Um, but thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Gabrielle Dolan

Thanks Lucy.

Lucy Bolan

Remember the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining

us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO. Bolan

Welcome to the CMO Chapters Podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing

executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes

of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever evolving landscape of business stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the

brand okay so i am delighted to have the fabulous gabrielle dolan on i think we're now on episode one for the cmo chapters podcast so gabrielle welcome i'm so excited to be speaking to you, Lucy. I can't wait.

Yeah, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Really excited to have you on, actually, because, I mean, I feel like I've known you for, I want to say, I don't know now, six months, maybe, I think about, on and off.

Yes, hasn't been long. No, it hasn't been too long.

Gabrielle Dolan

It feels longer than six months.

Lucy Bolan

It does. It does indeed, in a good way. I've got a lot of questions. We've got a little bit to get through because, I mean, as we know, you've obviously written a book recently on story intelligence. So I've got a

bit there that I want to sort of dive into. But before we get into it, can you please introduce

Gabrielle Dolan

yourself? Well, my name is Gabrielle Dolan, as you said in the intro. Most people call me Rel. My little sister could never pronounce my name and she'd call me Gabriel. So Rel has stuck.

But I've spent the last 21 years of my career teaching business people how to communicate more effectively through stories. So prior to that, I worked at National Australia Bank. I worked in senior leadership roles and change management roles towards the end. And it was think storytelling is something people need to learn how to do better so I thought what the hell maybe

I could be that person to teach people having never run a business before or never taught storytelling before but I had actually done a lot of designing and delivering of leadership program so I knew I could design and deliver a leadership program around storytelling and yeah, that was 21 years ago. I thought I would, you know, just see if it worked out. If it didn't work out, I'd go back and get another job in corporate.

It'd be fair to say it's worked out.

Lucy Bolan

I think it's worked out really well. I mean, you've, what, 20 years now, 21 years?

Gabrielle Dolan

It's 21 years and counting. So, yeah, I worked in corporate for 20 years. And so now I've been out. But, yeah, clearly I still work very, very closely with corporate.

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

So why do you think, why storytelling? I mean, I'm just trying to think because, I mean, from my perspective, I feel like I'm only really getting into this now, if I'm being completely honest, since I've certainly got to know you

and obviously from reading your book and, you know, following you on LinkedIn. But let's go back 20 years ago. I can imagine storytelling back then. Was that a bit of a new sort of, oh, my God, what is this?

Gabrielle Dolan

The typical reaction I got was, what the hell is storytelling got to do with business? It was like, ooh, once upon a time. And people just, the amount of times people said to me, hang on a minute,

you left your corporate job, well-paid job, to teach people storytelling. Like, are you mad? And so, yes, that was very much the general reaction back then. When I was still at NAB and I sort of had this feeling,

you know, I just, I was in change management roles, right? So, you know, you're going out to the business units and you're explaining why we need to change. And of course, every business unit says, no, we don't need that because we're special and blah, blah, blah. Everyone says it.

And what I found is when I shared a story, and look, it wasn't a magical silver bullet, but it sort of put people's defences down a bit and they sort of at least listened. And I would, you know, often get, well, I guess that makes sense or I never thought about it that

way. And I started to reflect that it's when I shared a story that got through. And then I actually started to notice around me that I would see people speak

on stage and go, they're brilliant presenters. And then I was thinking, the reason they're brilliant presenters is because they're sharing stories. So I sort of started to notice the great presenters were sharing stories, the brilliant leaders that I wanted to work with were sharing

stories. Like we always know great salespeople share stories and great teachers share stories. So I had this inkling that it was a skill. And then I came across this book written by Stephen Denning.

I think it was called the Organisational Guide to Storytelling. And he was an ex-World Bank. He was an ex-senior exec at the World Bank. And I just seriously read that book.

And I was thinking, I knew it. I knew it. I knew there was something in this. And the fact that he was an ex-senior executive at the world bank i'm thinking if someone in that position is writing a book on the power of storytelling then there's absolutely

something in this so um yeah so i like i said 21 years ago i thought what the hell i'm gonna give this a crack the um our kids were two and five at the time and i just seriously thought if it doesn't work out,

I'll have a couple of years home with the kids and I'll just go back and get another job.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good on you. Good on you. And it was a risk, obviously, that paid off. So here we are. Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

It was a risk. Yes. You know, it's funny. It didn't feel like a risk at the time. I'm not sure why. I think because I just had the attitude, well, I'll give it a go and if it doesn't work out you know I'm home you know a

year or two with the kids and then I'll just go back and get another job I had no no I knew I could come back and get another job so that wasn't an issue so it didn't overly feel like a risk but you know I mean it was in hindsight we

we decided me my husband collectively decided to reduce our income by 60% because I was you know earning more money than and that the so but yeah that

was a joint decision.

Lucy Bolan

So when I look at someone yourself, I mean, I see you as a bit of the guru when it comes to all things stories. So, I mean, is this something naturally that you've been really good at that you've, I guess, identified yourself with and gone, you know what,

as you said earlier, okay, there's something in this and off I go? Or have you yourself had to also, like, you know, really, I guess, hone in on your own craft and keep developing that as well.

Gabrielle Dolan

A bit of both. My mates that I went to school with and I still keep in contact with, so they've known me since I was 12. And, you know, they just think it's so appropriate that

I'm doing what I do because they would say, you were the one that was always telling the funny stories at the pub. But it was like one of my oldest mates, we lived together for a while and something would happen during

the day at home and I would just start chuckling to myself. And she goes, you were going to retell this story at the pub tonight and it's going to be so much more funnier than what had actually happened. I go, yeah, I know.

Because I'm kind of, so there was a bit of that. But the reality is we're all storytellers. We actually all tell stories. And some people are absolutely better at telling stories than others, just naturally, like just naturally.

You know, some people are naturally better at tennis than others. Okay. So that's a given, but everyone can get better at it. So yes, I have over the last 21 years gone through, figured out why, what works and what

doesn't work. And sometimes when you tell a joke and you could tell a joke and everyone laughs and you can tell a joke, you know, to the different people next week this and you think it's the same way but no one laughs and and there'll be elements that you forgot to say or

didn't say or was in the delivery and so it's the same with the story there's there's things that you i can i can hear a story and people go i don't know why it didn't work and i'll go this is why it

didn't work and so it's teaching people the process that hopefully a repeatable framework that will increase their chances of their stories landing and being effective.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. And on that, why are stories so effective? Like, you know, why is it that when we listen to a story, and I mean, you've got a job doing this, why is it so important?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So there's a whole heap of research done by neuroscientists, very smart people, that say that when our brains hear a story, it taps into emotion and the brain processes emotion different to logic in two

different ways. So first of all, we actually make decisions based on emotion and business need to realise this because business just goes, oh, we're not making decisions based on emotion.

It's on logic and blah, blah, blah. We always make decisions based on emotion. It's like, you know, whether it's buying the latest iPhone or a new pair of shoes or a house or buying or working for a company or working for you or, you know, in a job interview, deciding.

People are walking out going, I reckon, I think we could really work with them. I think they'd be a really great fit. And that's their emotional decisions. Now, yes, it needs to logically make sense. So you still, I'm not saying you don't have the logic,

you'd still need the logic there, but we're human beings and all human beings make decisions based on emotion. So a story taps into emotion and what else, what the brain also does with emotion,

it stores it in the long-term part of our brain. So if a story, a well-told story, not all stories, if it taps into emotion, now I'm not saying emotional, like it's going to be really sad or anything, but it taps into emotion and therefore you remember the stories. So,

and look, when I speak to people, we sort of know this. Like you go, yeah, like people go, I remember I saw this great presenter and he told a story and they can retell me the story and I go how long ago was

this and I go that would have been over 10 years ago and I go what else what else can you remember from that presentation nothing nothing except the story so that's why stories are really powerful

on several things it helps people understand the message um it helps people remember the message because they've remembered the story and ultimately they can retell the story without losing its meaning.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. So I was reading the, cue the book, the fabulous story intelligence here last night and I found it so interesting because as we know, we're in a world of AI now.

And I think something that you mentioned in that book, which I really resonated with was we are in a world of distrust now. Absolutely. Where naturally there's so many of us out there that see so much content on LinkedIn

or we hear stories and we go, yeah, no, that didn't really happen. Or LinkedIn or, you know, AI wrote that. So, you know, the book that you recently wrote, I mean, God, it's just so

interesting. And I loved all these individual different stories in there as well. And the exercise that you did around, you know, did AI write it or did I? I think what you did i could tell i won't spoil it but anyway so i mean and i love the analogy

as well when you said batman and robin it's kind of like you know your story batman and then robin see it as ai so i guess my question is you know if you were speaking to say marketers because i mean

there's going to be marketers listening to this how can they best would you say use storytelling when they say it's a CMO when they're in their role they're often talking generally about a brand and promoting that brand

story how best can they perhaps use it more so internally even when they're

Gabrielle Dolan

working with their own team yeah so the vast majority of the work I do Lucy is I go into organizations and how and teach the leaders how to tell stories. And it's normally around the values or the brand or the culture,

but you know, it's whatever you call it. It's like, this is what we value. These are the behaviors we expect. This is what we want to be known for. And my focus is on personal stories. So they didn't happen at work because I think they're the most powerful and they're the most,

but they're the most underutilized. So a lot of the times when companies talk about their values, they talk about, you know, work-related stories. So if they, you know, if one of their values is exceptional customer service, they'll share stories of their employees delivering great

customer service, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And I call them professional stories, but you can add on the public story. So going back to your question, if you've got a CMO

or CEO or any senior exec, and they want to talk, they're either talking internally to their people, as in this is the behaviour we want, this is the culture we want, this is, you know, the values we value.

Or even if it's external people, like you're trying to recruit people. And like, seriously, I've been sharing these stories in a job interview, for example, because as we know, or as you would know, you know, it's you're selling the job as much as the people are trying to want the job.

They're having a decision on whether they work for you as well and it's an emotional decision remember that so I would say to any any executive that's trying to communicate values is first of all list the values and it doesn't necessarily need to be

only the company values it could be your own values as well and what people tend to do initially is go, oh, we value integrity. We value transparency. We value collaboration.

And it's just words, right? Words, words, words, words. And you're like, seriously, you throw a blanket over every corporate organizational values and 95% of them are

exactly the same, just worded differently. So that's where we start. But then I go, well, what does that mean to you? So you've just said we value collaboration i would go well what does that mean to you and

and i say to people what does it mean to you personally because the straight away they go well you know that the team works towards a you know shared goal blah blah blah again like what

does that mean so i keep asking them personally and you would be surprised how many senior execs have i say what does it mean to you personally? And they'll have a think about it and they'll say something.

And I go, what else does it mean to you personally? And they'll go, ooh, good point. You've really, yeah, you've put me on the spot here. I haven't thought about it before. So the real challenge, before we even get to the story,

is what does collaboration really mean to you personally? And ask yourself. And then you'll drill down and instead of saying things like working as a team, there'll be elements like seeking everyone's feedback or at least listening to

people's feedback or concerns about whatever it is, right? And then we find a story. And then, so my advice is you find a personal story and the really powerful ones. Let's just say there's an

example about it's actually seeking and listening to people's feedback is the messy. I would say, think of a personal story as it didn't happen at work when you

didn't do that. A lot of people go, well, why would I share a story when I didn't do it? Because sharing stories about when you didn't do it, and it could be like, you know, you're on holidays with friends and someone suggested, oh, it wouldn't go that way. And

you go, no, no, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And then you've gone that way and, you know, crap happened, right? It can be as simple as that. It doesn't have to be these big major stories. And then when you're sharing the story, of course,

you're getting across the fact that you've either regretted that decision or you've learned a really valuable lesson and things like that, which now means that value is really important to you.

I know that value is really important to you.

Lucy Bolan

I think, and I find as well myself, because, I mean, I personally, you know, practice this myself, and I find it's the bridge isn't it it's the leap between the personal story and then getting it across to exactly what it means from a business perspective

the commercials and I think as well if you get that right if you nail it then it's going to really pack a punch and resonate yeah I've also personally listened to a lot of I'm gonna my

friends are gonna hate this but I've got friends I'm still in the go oh my gosh this happened the other day oh it was hilarious and they'll be on for 30 minutes about this bloody story and you're like my god like it can't be that funny and actually you've lost me

you lost me at 10 minutes actually so there's a bit of an art with it isn't there and i'm sure part of what you're doing is obviously getting people to tailor how to structure the story yeah

Gabrielle Dolan

the one of a common mistake is that people their stories just go way too long. So way too long. My advice is your story should be roughly around about 60 to 90 seconds. You can tell some brilliant stories in 30 seconds,

but if your stories are going two minutes or longer, they're just too long. And there's a real discipline in getting your story succinct. And part of the process I teach is if you're really clear on that single message, really clear on the single message, then that

will determine what information you put in your story and what, and most importantly, what, what you leave out. Wow. And sometimes people get full, you know, they, they telling the story and

everyone's listening. So they start adding more and they start adding more. And it was just like, just, you know, and I think the more senior people get, the more inclined to do this so it's um you know there's the saying i often say you didn't

get any funnier you just got more senior it's the same with your stories your stories didn't get any more engaging you just got more senior and people are politely nodding when they're really thinking

Lucy Bolan

get to the point so true so true so in this market i mean obviously as a recruiter i mean I do a lot of work with marketers who are, I mean, as we know, there's a lot of people out there looking for work right now, unfortunately.

And it's a really competitive story. And, you know, I see a lot of CVs where we've got fantastic key achievements. I mean, the CVs look great. But, and I said this to so many people all the time, know your narrative, know how to, you know, tell your story, how to, you know, articulate yourself.

But there's a lot that don't. And I don't know if that comes down to confidence, but how can, how can these people listening, how can they use storytelling to better

themselves, especially in an interview as well? Because I'm sure this would be very helpful.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, job interviews are the perfect opportunity to share stories. Like, you know, often, you know, when I work with people and like, I'm going, I share a story in a presentation with your team and they go what what you just start your story

and it's like well yes you do but you clear on the message job interviews are the perfect perfect opportunity because you know um i assume people still follow the bi process do they the

behavioral event you know tell us a time when yeah the style technique situation yeah yeah so what i what i would say if i was going advising people going for a job interview. The point is you don't want to use the job interview

to regurgitate your entire CV or resume. You've got the job interview. So I think the fact that you've got a job interview, you're ticking quite a few of the technical boxes or the skill or the

experience boxes. I would go and be very clear on what values that the company, look at the company values and what they value. I think have a good idea of what values or behaviors would be

expected in the role as well. And then I would go through the process of having both personal story and a professional story to communicate them. So again, if, you know, one of the values they

talk about is collaboration, I would have a professional story of when you've done that and potentially a personal story. Now you may not not you may not share both but i would be prepared

for that because they could sort of go well why is collaboration important to you now that's a perfect time to go and share their personal story personal stories are really valuable to if you're

lacking a little bit of industry experience so you might not have or you're quite young so you know, if this is your first or second job, you're not going to have as many work-related stories as, you know, someone in their 40s or 50s.

But you've probably got these amazing experiences, you know, when you're in, you know, Girl Guides or Scouts or, you know, going on a school excursion.

And you did. So you think about those lateral stories that still demonstrate, they still demonstrate collaboration or they still demonstrate risk making and you're sharing the personal stories.

You could, you know what, you can even share stories about your parents or your growing up that show that this, this is part of you. This is, you were raised with this value because your parents instilled it in you.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, it's so true. And it's really funny. We're talking about this. So I, I've got my parents visiting at the moment from the UK, which is fun, fun and games. And I was chatting

to my dad actually last night and I said, oh, I'm interviewing, you know, Gabrielle. And he, you know, he's like, who's Gabrielle? Anyway, we went through the whole background, et cetera, storytelling. And he said, it's really funny, you know, he said, because he used to be quite

senior at British Airways Space and he was there for about 40 odd years. And he got his last job, which was overseeing, I think, customer service. Because he mentioned in that job interview that when he was younger,

he saw how important customer service was, working in his dad's DIY shop, where they were measuring nails and scales and all that kind of stuff.

And the HR director actually said to him afterwards, oh, you got that job because we love that story and how much customer service and how much you valued that as a child. And I said, well, there you go. You know, this is why it's so important.

And I think you're right. You're so right. It makes it, you know, when people tell me stories that are articulate, they get to the point, you know, they resonate with exactly what we're talking about.

You know, it really packs a punch. You know, it's so important.

Gabrielle Dolan

That's a great example. So it's a great example because what a story does is, I want to go back aristotle's model of influence where he said the three most important things when you're trying to influence people and you look at a job interview that is

the ultimate you're trying to influence people to hire you um you need logos ethos and pathos which which is logic personal credibility and emotional connection and what we tend to do with a cb or

is we go on logic oh i've done this before, these are the results. And that the approach with the STAR technique, where this was the situation, this is the task, and this is the result.

And that's all very logical, right? So I'm not saying you don't need that, it's logical. But the real, the most important thing when it comes to logic, personal credibility, or emotional connection, is credibility and emotional connection.

So what the story has done, your dad's story about measuring nails when he was a kid working in his dad's factory, it's created that emotional connection. We spoke about before, a good story taps into emotion, so it's already done the emotional

connection. What it's given him is credibility. Now it's not credibility in everything, but it's credibility in the message of he takes customer service serious.

So he's talking about that and it's through the story that builds credibility. It's only through the story that builds credibility. Because every single person going for that job interview, if they knew customer service was a big thing, they would all go,

customer service is really important to me. I'm really behind. I think the customers, and they would say it all, but sharing the story of him working in his dad's factory gives him credibility

that words alone will not do.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like a reference there and then in itself, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

I guess part of this podcast as well, I mean, I try and, you know, if anything, speak to people like yourself or the leaders, et cetera, to educate, you know, the next generation of marketers coming up on how to,

I guess, if they want to become a leader, how to better themselves, you know. One thing that does concern me and that I do see a lot is there's and I'm going to say maybe it's the COVID era to a degree you know there's this generation coming through

that unfortunately I find perhaps aren't as confident articulating or talking about who they are or what they're doing is there any advice for those guys that you can tap into like I mean

what would you say to these you know these, these younger generation coming through, like how they can better start to at least, you know, listen and take note of what you're talking about when it comes to storytelling?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So I think you're right. Like, like some people don't like selling themselves.

Lucy Bolan

They don't.

Gabrielle Dolan

It's like people often go to me, oh, I'd like to tell a story, but I don't want to brag. And I go, okay, well, don't brag. Like we don't, we don't want to be the bragger. well, don't brag. Like we don't want to be the bragger, but sharing stories about what you learned from that, the lesson I learned from that was the importance of whatever. That's a really

good way to share a story because it's not feeling like it's bragging. I love the advice from our respective mate, Jack Phillips. And she sort of said, when people go, well, what are your strengths?

What are you good at? And literally saying, well, people have told me that i'm very good at this so that it becomes like oh i'm good at this well well this is what people say about me people told me i'm good

so i love that technique i know i know that's not a story but you could do something like that and back it up with the story so people have told me that i'm you know very good at collaborating and making decisions, really being decided with decisions.

Okay, so share a story that does that. And again, they can be really powerful. And the stories can be both the personal stories and all the professional stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well, especially when I've got clients within the world of HR, you know, chief people officers that are looking at, you know, we talk about now how actual employees are the brand advocates now, I mean you're probably going well

we knew that from way back when this is you know that they're the storytellers within the business but then you go on these websites and it's about us or it's our story and it's not their story at all because they're using a load of

jargon like we are innovative and we are collaborative and it's all blah blah blah so I mean what would you advise me to these people like I mean you know I mean I'm thinking if I was in a HR director role, I'd be going, right, let's get storytelling people.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, a couple of things I would say to those. First of all, as we've spoken about, storytelling is an absolute skill, right? It's a skill. And so if you're in, you know, whether you're a CEO or chief people officer or whatever,

and you're going, okay, we want our people to be better at storytelling, you've got to teach them how to do it. And I know I might be biased because this is my job, but you can't just go, oh, start telling stories and not teach them how to do it because I've seen that done and it's

absolutely setting them up for failure. And then, and then the same, you know, senior exec will go, oh, we tried storytelling. It was like, yeah, you tried storytelling without learning how to do it

properly, which means you were always going to fail. So it's an absolute skill. You might have seen some articles come out the last six months or so

from the Wall Street Journal about biggest increase in job titles has got storyteller in the title. They did all this research on LinkedIn. Now, part of me goes, I told you so.

I knew storytelling was a skill. But part of me is really concerned that they're thinking storytelling, there's now a storytelling department.

And you know what it is, it's going to be the marketers. The marketers are now saying they're chief storytelling officers. My concern is that we almost outsource it because like you said, the best brand ambassadors

any organisation has is their employees. A hundred percent. You know, whether they're the front, you know, whether they're the leaders sharing stories internally or whether they're the

sales people sharing stories externally to clients or potential clients or they're the customer facing people right it's how they share your employees are the best brand ambassadors so i i see the companies that implement storytelling really well yes they train their leaders and they

train their senior leaders and they train the marketers and comms people but they train the marketers and comms people, but they train other people as well within the organization because learning how to tell, and you know what, learning how to tell a story well

is an absolute career skill. So I always say like, why wouldn't you just give, invest your employees and give them that skill? This is a skill that is going to benefit for them for the rest of their and even in their personal life as well it's like invest in them and don't just

look that the marketing department is gonna come up with stories then other people share and that and that's when exactly right Lucy you're listening them and yeah oh my god could you put any more jargon into that and you know what

most of the time it's not a story it's like and I see that all the time on websites it's our story or our stories. And I get in and have a look and I go, none of them were stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

You know, there may be case studies or they're just not stories.

Lucy Bolan

No, no, exactly. Yeah, I've seen it myself actually a lot. And I think it's since our last chat, you know, I've become a lot more wiser to it as well. Those people out there that, you know, they've been doing this,

but they've got the top three stories and they keep regurgitating the good old top three stories on that conveyor belt. Off they pop. Because that can be hard trying to constantly come up with new ones, you know,

like that are still going to have the same impact.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, it can be. And, you know, I'm going to answer this two ways. If you're a leader and you know you've got a story and it's almost become part of your signature story,

you would use it all the time. Now, the problem is when it gets the same audience, hears it again and again and again, everyone's going, oh, my God, if I hear this story one more time. But, you know, there's, I mean, and I can give you an example too

of a leader that shared a great signature story and she shares it all the time. And a lot of people have, in fact, I might give it to you because I haven't given an example. and this will talk about some of the things were spoken about how

you can communicate values that give you credibility so I worked you know was organizing or working with an organization that you know they wanted

to teach their leaders how to communicate the values through stories so great winning her name was Anne and she said one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of their company values so went through that

process what does it mean what does it mean what does it mean maybe really think about it and she she said what it really means to me is doing the right thing all the time and not just when it suits us so the story she shared and I

shared the story and then we might just unpack why it works is um in the early 60s my dad was a professional swimmer and he reached the point in his career that he actually tried out for

the national swim team. And on the day of the meet, he was doing his race and he got to the end and did the tumble turn and he misjudged and he missed the wall. Now this was in the early 60s. So there was no census back then. There was judges, but with all that splashing and kicking, he knew

they wouldn't know if he touched the wall or not. So he had to make a split second decision. Does he go back and touch the wall or does he just keep swimming? Now he decided to go back and touch the wall. Now, you don't really recover from a race when you do that.

And Dad didn't. He never won. There was probably a whole lot of other reasons, but he never made the national swim team. And growing up as a kid, I would often hear Dad share that story and people would ask him, have you ever regretted going back and touching the wall?

And he'd always say, I've never regretted that because if I didn't go back and touch the wall, I'd have to spend the rest of my life knowing I did the wrong thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value, doing the right thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value doing the

right thing. It is only a matter of time before we come across our own go back and touch the wall moment. And I invite you to consider what my dad would do. Now, I want to put it there for,

go back to a couple of things. When Anne shares, every time someone comes and works for Anne, she shares that story. So it's sort of part of her personal

induction program because she has told me, I know the impact it has. I know the heavy lifting it does. She said that story demonstrates to them my leadership style. So she's not a, she's not a

win at all cost leader. She is, if we do the right thing and still don't achieve the outcome, I'll have your back. So she just shares that story every single time she's been on podcast and shared the story she's been on

panels around leadership and shares the story it's become part of her signature story we talked about you know logic uh credibility and connection so again can you see let's just say you were in a job

interview and she was interviewing you and you were talking about you know integrity and doing the right thing and she could say you all know that that's really important to us blah blah blah words but by

sharing the story I now truly believe and trust that she she delivers on that that that is her leadership but it's only through the story I get credibility now of course you do have to deliver

on that that's the other thing you've got to deliver on that but yeah that's a customer story that she has shared like this was 12 years ago I did the work with her and she still shares it in the last time I caught up with her was probably about this time last year okay

I said are you still sharing your dad's story and she went absolutely and then she said her dad had passed away like a three months prior and she had to do the eulogy and she shared that story so I was like oh that's very so lovely so so

if you've got a story that works, keep sharing it, but you also want to be on the lookout for other stories and that could potentially replace something like that or you might be just sharing a story about something else

and you need multiple ways, multiple stories. But part of what I do, Lucy, is once I help people realise it's not the bigger heart moments, it's not the big you know it's not the bigger heart moments it's not the climbing mount ever

it's not the recovering from cancer type stories it's just the little day-to-day ones once people realize that they will something will happen and they'll go oh oh that's a great story about making

assumptions or that's a great story around collaboration and they just start to use those

Lucy Bolan

stories yeah i love it and that story in particular i think really does hone in on you know I think coming down to someone's authentic you know their traits very much trusted um and and and you know to to your point you know when she's telling that

story she's saying you're like you can make mistakes but as long as you're honest and you know it's that that honesty and I'm just saying you know I'd be going well if I won that I would have won that race and I hadn't touched the wall and so actually I feel like a fraud, you know, so I'd rather do that.

It's doing the right thing, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

And the other reason why that story works too is we spoke about this. It's a story about her dad. And when she tells it, what you see in her is pride. Like she's really proud of her dad. And so you know she was raised this way.

This is not just a company value she's towing the line to. You truly believe that this is important to her.

Lucy Bolan

I love it. So my next question, we're going to wrap things up but what is next for ral dolan i mean how many books have you done how eight is this going to be the

Gabrielle Dolan

last book well i said the last book was going to be the last book on storytelling but um you know i just felt comp well i felt compelled to write this one because people kept asking will story

will ai replace storytelling it's like God, no, it won't. And, you know, can you use AI to help with your stories? And my first response was, no, you cannot. That's cheating. That's not real.

That's not keeping it real. But anyway, yeah, you can. So what's next for me at the moment is I'm just marketing the book. I think this book, it's 20 years of my everything. And I do believe this will be my last storytelling book I write.

So I just, I think it's timely. I think it's relevant. I'm just on a mission to let as many people know about the power of storytelling and the book. So that's my focus at the moment.

On a personal level, I did turn 59 a few weeks ago, and I'm on a mission to be the fitness, healthiest, strongest I've ever been by the time I'm 60 so oh I love it yeah pumping a lot of weight good on you

Lucy Bolan

that's so good I feel like that now and I mean god it's it's kind of like mid-40s I'm like okay next year next year we'll get to it but good on you well I've been reading this and I think it's really weird honestly I think it's great and I'm really not just saying that I think for anyone

who's a leader I don't think you know it's and what I love about it I think it relates to anyone whether you're marketing or not you know anyone know, I think if you want to harness yourself, how you're going to be better even in like personal life, the barbecue conversation,

like really, you know, I think it's, it packs the punch for sure.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, well, there was even, I mean, because I do believe this is a life skill as well. I mean, there's a whole chapter in that on, you know, what if you've got to give, you know, a 21st speech or a best man speech or a eulogy, just have stories, just have stories

for them.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I've really enjoyed catching up. Thank you so much, Riel. It's been absolutely awesome. Love it. Love the energy. And honestly, I think there's going to be so much in this that people are going to go, ah, right, okay, that's how you do it. Right. The secret formula. Um, but thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Gabrielle Dolan

Thanks Lucy.

Lucy Bolan

Remember the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining

us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END

Lucy Bolan

[00:03] Welcome to the CMO Chapters Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top

[00:14] marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate

[00:32] in the ever-evolving landscape of business. Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand. Okay, so Jarrod, welcome to the CMO Podcast.

[00:48] It's great to have you on the show.

Jarrod Purchase

[00:50] Thanks to be here, Lucy. Good to have one of our conversations, our many conversations we've had recorded, which I like.

Lucy Bolan

[00:57] Oh, I know, I know, I know. No pressure. This one is recorded. No pressure. Well, look, Jarrod, it's really great to have you on. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Let's kick things off. Jarrod, would you like to introduce yourself?

Jarrod Purchase

[01:10] Yes. Yeah. My name is Jarrod Purchase. I've been a marketer for about 17 years now. I've done all sorts of different bits and pieces, but yeah, cut my teeth in email marketing back in the day when you used to have to code HTML and CSS.

[01:24] So anyone listening to this that is around my age might appreciate that. Nowadays, you can just get AI to build everything. And yeah, kind of stumbled into marketing like I think a lot of people do as well. So I've gone from email marketing all the way through to running multi-million dollar budgets for a variety of brands.

[01:44] And I also run a group called Club CMO Australia, which is an organization based in melbourne to spot the name and that's a really strong community of 70 plus cmos which is a fantastic source of insight

[01:57] information validation um worry yeah and it's definitely something i'll pull on a bit today because the the insights you get from groups like that as i'm sure you can relate to yeah

Lucy Bolan

[02:08] ah big time absolutely we've got a treasure trove of all sorts to unpack. So I'm going to, I always kind of kickstart these conversations by really going way back to the beginning. And so when I look at your LinkedIn, I see GSK. That's kind of where it seemed like, am I right, where you started, sort of way back

[02:29] at the beginning.

Jarrod Purchase

[02:30] Yeah.

Lucy Bolan

[02:31] I mean, it seemed like in that role, you were like business consultant. So it's funny when I have to see cmos that start up in big global businesses like that a lot of them say you know what it really helped me cut my teeth like i learned a lot

[02:46] in those you know a couple of years like i'd love to get your thoughts you know is it was that a

Jarrod Purchase

[02:51] blessing that got you on the right path uh yeah very much so that's that's how i sort of fell into marketing um once again showing my age but uh online marketing and online commerce was still a relatively new thing i was part of a student

[03:06] program through swimmer university which they still do fantastic we'll always sing the praises of program they are there where they place you into the industry um for a year a payroll i think you're on minimum wage or something like that but for someone living at home and um with absolutely

[03:20] no expenses it was amazing to get a consistent payback and they rotate you through um different different departments i didn't end up in the marketing department, I ended up in the e-business department, which is if you called a group of people in an organisation

[03:35] now an e-business department, you would probably be laughed at for how old that sounds. So, that was my first exposure to anything around product and analytics and customer interaction online.

[03:58] And that's also where I met people that were significantly more advanced in their careers than me, and I started to see what the future would look like. So, yeah, for me the attraction of marketing was, which I don't think schools and universities do this particularly

[04:10] well necessarily, the balance or at least the variety that you get in the role that you might not get elsewhere. And what I mean by that is creativity. You get to express yourself personally,

[04:22] but you also get to explore creativity in how a brand talks, how a brand presents, how a brand internally in the organization is represented. And then you've got the other side, which is sort of forced upon old school marketers,

[04:38] is the analytic side. So needing to know numbers well, needing to be very close to the finance department any sort of commercial leads those sort of things so um how to tie what you do to through to performance

[04:51] and actual commercial outcomes so i think that's a that's a um a thoroughly enjoyable um combination of work that we do um and something why i've always wanted to be a bit of a generalist is

[05:04] because you have um exposure to those different things yeah so so to answer your question yeah that's where i started um uh the department i was in before that which is always funny was the

[05:16] procurement department and my surname's purchase um so that was always a joke and so i was going to be was not going to stay in uh procurement also known as the purchasing department um for very

[05:28] long there were too many laughs which i didn't mind too much, but got over it when I had to call the suppliers. And I remember one distinct recall where he said, your name's actually purchasing or in the purchasing and he yelled out to his colleagues, listen to this.

Lucy Bolan

[05:42] So. Yeah. It sounds like a smart move. Yeah.

Jarrod Purchase

[05:47] Sounds like a smart move.

Lucy Bolan

[05:48] I'm trying to say, like I look at your career and from what I can see, I mean, you actually started to become officially, I guess, a CMI around about 2018. And is it fair to say, have you been quite intentional about your career?

[06:02] I mean, I know when we all start off, you know, we all want to earn more money, we want to get to the top, but it doesn't always happen like that. And then guess what? Some people work out that they're really not great at leading teams.

Jarrod Purchase

[06:14] Intentional. I liked doing work that I enjoyed. So intentional in that sense. And I like working with particular types of people. So my specialty, which I only really sort of came to the conclusion

[06:29] in the last few years, is working with founders typically, so start-ups and scale-ups. So when a company gets to a certain point, it becomes too big for me. Things become slower. The game of politics becomes significantly bigger,

[06:43] and it's just, you know, I don't think many people really enjoy that. my first world was at the gsk and g capital which was my only exposure to to business really um was was was fine um great

[06:58] organizations you get a lot of support you work for a big brand um but then i went over the uk and uh you know with with no connections no plan um got my my shoes stolen in a place I was staying at before my first interview

[07:13] and ended up at a small organisation called BOTB, bestofthebest.com. And you're English, yeah. You might actually know these guys. I'm not sure if I've met them too. Yeah, you know them, yeah.

[07:25] The company that had cars in airports where you could buy a ticket to. So that was a very different experience because it was a physical office where you could see everyone that's in the organization pretty much so and

[07:38] i enjoyed that a lot more so um intention yes uh intention to continue to work with people like that where you're very close to the vision um you're very close to decision makers you can make

[07:50] decisions yourself you're trusted to make decisions and empowered to learn new things and understand new things because you know ultimately you need to kind of wear multiple hats so yeah continue to work with organisations like that.

[08:02] Yep, absolutely. The CMO role was never a target for me, but I think that's sort of where I've ended up and it kind of makes sense shifting away from being on the tools

[08:15] and doing the thing to helping to write strategy in areas where I've had a lot of success.

Lucy Bolan

[08:23] Yeah, I've got a really big question after that. Did you ever get your shoes back after the interview?

Jarrod Purchase

[08:29] No. No. No. So I was like 25 or something like that and I'd just gone over. I was staying in a hostel and, yeah, woke up in the morning. I was ironing my shirt on the bar and, yeah, shoes were gone.

[08:41] So there was some Italian guy that lended me his shoes and they were two sizes too big. So I would have looked like an absolute mess going into that interview. I have no idea how I got that role.

[08:52] I do. They needed an email marker and had those skills but yeah

Lucy Bolan

[08:58] brilliant well i've got some shocking interview stories myself but i think we'll save that for another podcast i would i would subscribe to that okay all right well maybe it's an idea that i

[09:09] don't know we'll see i guess one thing that i've sort of observed about you and and and i've seen this is that you know at one point you did have your own podcast yourself I think the anonymous

[09:22] CMO and then you've you know you're I think is it co-president is that the official title of the CMO club CMO and I feel like you know I look at somebody like yourself and I think god I wish

[09:35] there was more people like that in terms of that mindset and be around intentionally growing your own personal brand and also your network I think in this market it's about a lot i've seen it become

[09:46] quite unstuck because it's only kind of over the last year or so really we've been talking about it and it's become actually quite relevant um i'd love to get your thoughts on that i mean is that

[09:57] something that you've been pretty is it fair to say you've been quite proactive in doing that

Jarrod Purchase

[10:02] um the personal brand stuff not really um that's that's more of a byproduct of the stuff I've been doing. So I really enjoy connecting people. I enjoy connecting people. I enjoy these conversations.

[10:13] I enjoy deep conversations, even if it doesn't have anything to do with marketing. The podcast Rob Marfell and I were working on was similar to what you're doing, trying to get, trying to understand the person behind it and how they've got to where they are.

[10:28] So interview questions that show what percentage uplift they had when they did a particular campaign. Like you can get that content anywhere and it's not very useful to anyone no understanding the person and what

[10:39] decisions they've made to get get where they are um is really interesting club singham australia is uh that that was a yeah very much so a self-interest um project and that came from

[10:54] uh wanting to effectively crowdsource solutions to problems. So as you know, when you're the most senior person in an organisation in a particular discipline,

[11:07] there's not really anyone in the organisation you learn from for your discipline. You can learn from a CFO, from someone in tech, those sort of things. But what do you actually learn from? You read books, you listen to podcasts, but they're very much so like a one-way medium.

[11:21] Yeah. So I wanted to pull together a bunch of smart people and then talk to them about the problems I had. So Club Sema Australia, I take a lot of data and surveys, as I should as a marketer, from the community, know your customer.

[11:35] And then we create events off the back of that. So we're very much still creating events. We're solving super relevant, timely issues. So, yeah, it wasn't really a personal brand thing, but I guess that makes it, you know, it's a useful byproduct of that.

[11:52] Our members refer people into the organisation. People might come to me, recruiters come to me looking to fill roles and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, it's more connecting people and yeah, I guess my skills.

Lucy Bolan

[12:08] Yeah. Yeah. A question I'm keen to ask, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, given that you connected to 70 CMOs. I mean, I think you look at the market at the moment, I'll be honest, I do worry about

[12:21] both ends of the market. I think you've got all these incredible graduates who are coming through and they're applying for roles and there's easily like, I don't know, 300 applications more for one coordinator

[12:33] role. And then on the other end, we've got all these incredibly talented, experienced marketers who are CMOs or heads off really trying to find work. And there's not as much, you know, it's really quite slim pickings,

[12:47] even more so than it ever has been. So I kind of go, God, right, we've got this kind of meat in the middle where that's the prime kind of remit. And I just think, are they just going to become

Jarrod Purchase

[12:57] more fractional CMOs out there? I mean, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I think that would be the case. My view on, yeah, like I haven't seen the market like this so consistently,

[13:11] I guess, in that particular balance that you described for so long. It's might have been, you know, a year, less than a year type thing, but it's been quite consistently imbalanced for a while.

[13:23] The way I view marketing functions and teams and, you know, depending on who you chat to, people will say, you know, you chat to people who say, you know, marketing is the job of the whole organisation, is AI was going to come up at some stage,

[13:38] but the CMO position or a really experienced marketer will be the person that's directing AI tools to do execution. And that's pretty much where I'm at at the moment.

[13:50] Darwin Exxon I'm doing some work for over in Spain. You know, we don't really need to hire people. We just need to be using tools significantly better.

Lucy Bolan

[13:58] Okay.

Jarrod Purchase

[14:00] And that's happening over time. So the way I see it is small businesses and start-ups in particular will hire experts. So they'll hire the very expensive person where they might have historically

[14:11] got someone kind of mid-level and then sort of train them up because that's what they could afford. Yeah. Because historically you'd get that person they would then have to hire four or five people under any fam that have an agency so on so forth

[14:24] um i see businesses paying more for someone that's really really good and then that person having a very team or freelancers or ai to um do the execution for them because you're hiring the

[14:37] you're hiring the brain that can come up with a strategy you can criticize and challenge ai the the business and the brand to um the organization that actually still have to do stuff if you're running an event you still need you know you still need people to

[14:51] go and hire a venue into their catering and all that sort of stuff so you'd be hiring the brain and that personal network and connections and understanding of how this how things go together so yeah i don't know what the future holds you're in a better position to answer that but

[15:06] um that's where i see it going and um, yeah, the Club Cinema community, there's probably always about 5% of people who are moving between roles. Yeah. But they seem to land pretty well. So I don't know if it's just my community is just, you know,

[15:19] smarter than and more desirable than the average marketer out there, but they seem to be, everyone seems to be okay.

Lucy Bolan

[15:26] Yeah. Okay. Right. Yeah, it's interesting. And I wanted to sort of get your take as well because over the years, you know, you hear specific buzzwords, you know, you hear, you know, CMOs are under the pump, you know, deal more with less. And I mean,

[15:40] that was being flown around for a couple of years. And now everyone's obviously, we know AI has landed, it's officially here and how we're going to adopt that. What do you think is the general

[15:50] feeling from CMOs at the moment when they're looking and they're in 2026, you know, some businesses are founder all over it and they're like right we want to use ai they want to you know invest how do we do it and then there's some honestly that i still find quite frightening

[16:03] that they've still got their heads in the sand and they're like oh yeah they say i think it's just gonna pass pass by there's absolutely some clients i know that are 100 like that which is a little bit worrying what's the general consensus well i did a survey recently to my group and i

Jarrod Purchase

[16:18] haven't actually looked at the results yet so i should have looked at that beforehand and i give I've looked at the pie charts. I looked at the nice visuals because they're really easy to just quickly scan. I guess the problem that we, CMOs or senior marketing people,

[16:35] have always had is the whole issue of trying to do more with less. And AI very much only fits in that. My experience, and speaking to some people through your network as well is in any discipline, the issue is finding time to commit to these tools.

[16:54] So, okay, the board or CEO says, hey, we need to use AI more. Everyone agrees and everyone sees the benefit in it. And, you know, on my Instagram, I'm getting a new reel each day that says whatever Google's launched this day and that day.

[17:07] And it's useful and how it will be applied.

[17:27] So the biggest worry I see from my community is finding the time to be able to implement it. It doesn't seem to be, I have looked at the AI stats, there doesn't seem to be too much of a concern around the impact on their own teams in terms of downsizing,

[17:42] but also not increasing size. So I guess my view earlier on AI will probably just keep teams as they are and you won't hire in the future where you would have hired historically,

[17:54] seems to be the general consensus of my group at least.

Lucy Bolan

[17:59] Absolutely. I mean, I would agree. I've heard something similar for sure. Absolutely. Because I think people that are AI jobs are going to go, you know, it's, but also I think another threat is the fact

[18:10] that there's a lot of offshoring, you know, and this is why I worry about more the junior talent, you know, because it's like, well, we don't need to hire, you know, a specialist or we can get them in the Philippines

[18:20] or wherever it may be, you know, it's a lot cheaper. So yeah, interesting times interesting times ahead a question a question i did have and i wanted to i guess this is more for our listeners who are

[18:34] still developing you know within their careers what advice i mean if you'll say i don't know we'll call it i don't know 30 year old marketer or you know late 20s and you're a specialist and

[18:46] you're wanting to evolve i mean is there any kind of wise words that you would give those marketing managers out there that are looking to really develop the skills as a leader is there anything that you wish you'd have done perhaps in in you know your past when you look back at your career uh yeah for

Jarrod Purchase

[19:02] sure it depends it depends how you mean leader if you mean leader of people um personally i uh would have probably done more courses i'm not a massive fan of going on courses. I think I prefer to learn on the job,

[19:17] but I think leadership of people is a skill set that needs to be developed. And sometimes I probably would have done more kind of formal education around leading people. I think personally I take a lot of learnings and skills

[19:36] from personal relationships. I don't think they're any different. It's just some new art and apply that to leadership but um in terms of leadership from a commercial perspective i i still feel that um marketing a lot of people get into marketing

[19:52] for the um the flashy big ads creative that doesn't really exist that that more with many brands and i think the reality is um you know technical abilities and knowing numbers i've

[20:06] always said to people if this has, you need to know how to use numbers. If you do a campaign, you can't tell me the basics. Did you even A, B test the subject

[20:18] lines of the campaign? What has been the impact on your lifetime value? What is our lifetime value? You can just tell me that you made a really cool email campaign and it looks great and it's beautiful. Cool. But as a CEO or a founder, I'm like, okay, what did that do for us and yeah i find this a bit of a disconnect between um the idea

Lucy Bolan

[20:36] of marketing the reality of marketing yeah yeah like i think you bang on absolutely because it's funny i was chatting to a cmo a while ago and she was saying you know she recognized quite early on

[20:49] she really wanted to have a seat at the table but she said i was rubbish with numbers really really bad with numbers and i owned that and you know, I remember she said, I made friends with one of the

[21:01] data analysts and I just peppered him with questions. And finally, you know, I got it. And, you know, all of a sudden after, you know, a lot of investment in myself, I was able to,

[21:12] you know, really conquer that. And guess what she did? She got a seat at the table and now she's a very, very successful CMO, you know, good on it. But I feel like there's, I don't know, it sounds, I feel at the end of the

[21:24] day, it comes down to you, you know, it's your self-development and it's your areas. And if you, it's, we can all have the best, you know, programs and tools available, but by going to the gym,

Jarrod Purchase

[21:35] you only get the results if you work at it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, I think we've had this conversation before, cause I think that story, that story sounds familiar, but this one's getting recorded. So we might as well repeat it. Yeah. I think people, people love helping people i i i say this to everyone about anything in life really people really enjoy humans enjoy helping other people so

[21:55] if you as a as a 26 year old or something went to the cfo or someone in finance said look i don't understand this can you help me understand it people love to talk about their job and to help you out unless they're you know they're they're oh they're burnt out and that sort of thing just

[22:09] go to people and ask for help and sit next to them and listen to them and ask questions um you know admitting that you don't know something to me i was i liked that um because people don't always know everything if you're just nodding along and saying yeah yeah i'm going to

Lucy Bolan

[22:23] assume you're not exactly exactly right what's uh what do you think the future is of the cmo's role because i've had so many conversations about this i mean look none of us have got crystal balls we

[22:34] know that but you know we're seeing all these you know these titles come through like chief growth officer and you know it some people say oh it's gonna now sit within i don't know cx or your chief customer office remit do you think that over time the cmo role

[22:51] will diminish and it'll be it'll sit within other divisions have you any thoughts on that yeah i

Jarrod Purchase

[22:57] think it will like i think the title itself is um not really representative of what we do. Yeah. You know, there's a lot. What's the average tenure for a CMO? Like I think when Rob and I looked at it for our podcast,

[23:11] it was low in the middle of the COVID.

Lucy Bolan

[23:13] Yeah, it is.

Jarrod Purchase

[23:14] There's just two years or something like that.

Lucy Bolan

[23:17] Yeah, two years.

Jarrod Purchase

[23:18] Yeah. And I think that comes from there being a lot of pressure on that particular role to do all sorts of different things and for it to be a lever of success or failure. It's usually the CMO or the CPO that has to go.

[23:33] And, you know, the blurring lines between growth and marketing, people debate this, between growth and marketing are the most blurred they've ever been. What is growth? What is marketing?

[23:45] A person that just focuses on the brand and the way the brand is represented and interacted with, that doesn't, i don't think that really exists unless you're in a really large organization yeah for big companies in listen on the stock exchange

[24:00] a cmo i think still makes sense um for someone in a medium sized organization that's still doing you know many many you know 100 million or less like that's i don't think that role is really their

[24:14] thing um yeah but who knows i also think ai is gonna ai is gonna um we're gonna go full circle with ai we'll probably end up going back to more authentic um human-based interactions and that may result in i think marketers uh

[24:31] sort of specialization coming back a little bit more to how do we create more authentic um brand representations and uh connections and in-person connections community it's a human type yeah yeah tbc yeah that's just a big gut feel big time tbc and even now like i already see it i mean

Lucy Bolan

[24:49] we're already talking about the need for authentic content because i mean nowadays you see things and you don't even know i think this this element of trust you know there's a lot of there's a huge need i think for people to actually trust and engage in that content because let's be honest

[25:03] we don't know if it's real you know so i agree i think this full circle i don don't know, we could be using chalkboards in five years. Who knows? Back to the circle.

Jarrod Purchase

[25:17] Totally. Yeah. I know you're exaggerating, but I don't think that's so silly. There'll be stuff like that.

Lucy Bolan

[25:25] What have been the biggest learnings in your career, Jarrod? I want to dig into some failures. I know, I mean, look, we've all had to go through failures and learn. Was there any bit in your career when you look back any sort of like you know my little sort of

[25:40] i guess um chapters we'll call it where you've gone god you know what that worked for that person

Jarrod Purchase

[25:45] bloody hell it was hard work but my god i learned a lot um no not that specific example um it's usually been dan that was hard work and i don't want to do it again that was not a nice experience um yeah yeah failure is like of course anyone that anyone that says that it haven't had any failures

[26:02] or sort of skirts away from it, I don't know. Everyone has failed. I've got hilarious examples that I can laugh at now that I won't mention brands, but anyone that has known me from that part of my career that happens to be listening

[26:15] to this will probably know. Yeah, just, you know, sending emails. I even did it to the club CMO guys, like sent an email with first name in the subject line instead of the actual information. You know know the stuff like that sending emails to the brands those sort of I guess operational issues

[26:32] yeah putting ads out with spelling mistakes in it you know it just happens humor is involved and even with AI involved look it still happens yeah right from a career perspective yeah I think not trust not fault not trusting

[26:45] my gut on decisions and probably not delving deep enough into people or businesses when going for roles. I think ultimately, you know, interview processes, even if you're, you know, just looking for a job,

[27:04] interview processes need to be you interviewing them as much as them interviewing you. I'm sure obviously you know and you tell everyone. And I think not delving enough into that to understand whether I could actually give this to an organization.

[27:19] And one particular organization, especially working with founders, if you're going to an organization where either your discipline doesn't have any respect, and I've explicitly been told,

[27:35] hey, I don't really think marketing is a real thing, or the control over marketing,the function that you're going to manage is tightly held and you're not going to be able to wrestle that off the person.

[27:51] Your time there is going to be wasted. It's not going to be an enjoyable experience. So I think trusting your gut on that and delving deeper into the people is super important.

Lucy Bolan

[28:01] And that's a lesson I've learned, unfortunately, the hard way. Yeah. And unfortunately, I think many others would agree and have probably also learned the hard way on that especially over the last couple because you know we know that at the end of the day there's a lot of people out there looking for work right now and you know there's not as many roles for them and so as much as we can all be

[28:20] really picky the everyday people have got to pay the bills you know so it becomes a bit of a tricky a tricky situation to be in for sure yeah is there any resources i, I just want to tap into that.

[28:33] Is there any, I mean, apart from my podcast, obviously, but is there any like resources or podcasts or learning materials or anything that you'd recommend to any other CMOs or marketers

[28:44] out there that have been a bit of a go-to for you?

Jarrod Purchase

[28:48] Not really. I learn through people. Yeah. So, you know, if you're a generalist or you're in a management position, you will be connected typically to a creative agency, a media agency, maybe you've got freelance designers,

[29:03] copywriters, like talking to those people to understand how they do things and hopefully you're working with people that aren't just blowing smoke up your ass and aren't just, you know, feeding you the generic stuff,

[29:14] like working with really honest people. That's where I tend to learn. You know, advertising is an example. I use a guy called Paul Granger melbourne here and he'll give me honest takes and his his um thoughts on um ad platforms for example um you know x twitter we

[29:29] still call it twitter recently released and the new ad platform i'm like mate what's going on here he's like well you know the previous campaigns i've run before the overhaul that there was you know clear usage of bots in their um creation of of impressions and things like that

[29:45] so they're lying on those stats. So, you know, I probably could have heard that through a podcast or read a blog, but I'm hearing from someone that works with this stuff every day. And then, yeah, my club CMO community, hearing from those guys,

[30:00] telling them what I'm doing and where my problems are, and then getting that feedback from, you know, multiple people that have paid a lot of money. It's a similar thing. So I personally tend to learn from talking to people.

[30:12] So that's just my personal preference.

Lucy Bolan

[30:14] Yeah, yeah. Love it. Love it. So I'm going to wrap things up before I do. What is next for Jarrod Purchase? What's on the horizon?

Jarrod Purchase

[30:24] Good question. Darwin X, I'm doing it for at the moment. I'm thoroughly enjoying that. So I'm going to be with those guys for a while. We've got a beautiful group of people over in Spain and a very exciting vision on anyone that's in this sort of uh trading market sort of space um

[30:41] kind of watch watch this space what they're doing it's very exciting so committed to those guys for a while um but ultimately i actually want to do uh something of my own some sort of business and i've kept an eye out for style and stuff for a few years um so probably something like that i've

[30:57] developed a physical product which is just here but it's not quite um ready for launch so yeah i think probably more of the same to be honest um developing clubs seem to have a lot more this year so anyone that's in this space at this level come along it's a

[31:11] beautiful community um we're doing more events it's yeah yeah it's something i enjoy yeah pretty

Lucy Bolan

[31:18] content with where i'm at at the moment yeah nice nice well i've recommended quite a few cmos to to you guys and i'm sure yeah you can get better i'm like hello Jarrod i've got another one here send them through thank you

Jarrod Purchase

[31:30] uh for doing what you do well thank you i've done the same back uh i've always said i do know lucy baldwin no i don't i'll introduce you much everyone we're getting we're getting there

Lucy Bolan

[31:45] slowly slowly well thank you so much Jarrod you've been a a star thank you so much for getting uh taking the time out to jump on this morning. I really appreciate it. No problem.

Jarrod Purchase

[31:58] Thanks for the chat, Lucy.

Lucy Bolan

[31:59] Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled

[32:02] with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences, wisdom shared today as with our

[32:13] guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way

[32:27] until next time continue to innovate evolve and carve out your path to CMO

THE END

Lucy Bolan

[00:03] Welcome to the CMO Chapter Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights, and strategies of top

[00:14] marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever

[00:32] evolving landscape of business. Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand. Okay, so I think we're now on episode three with the CMO Chapters Podcast to welcome

[00:49] the absolute legend, Mo Bhargava. So thank you so much for joining, Mo. I really appreciate it.

Mohit Bhargava

[00:57] Thank you. My pleasure, Lucy. Hello to you and anybody else who listens

Lucy Bolan

[01:01] and watches this in real time. No later. Excellent. Well, look, I'm super delighted to have you on. There's a lot we're going to unpack and I think we're going to be definitely taking you down memory lane, no doubt, or career memory lane, I should say. So before we kick on,

[01:15] can you give us a really quick sort of intro on who you are and I guess what you do?

Mohit Bhargava

[01:20] Yeah, sure. I've spent just over 20 years attempting to market and storytell for media and entertainment brands across Australia and Southeast Asia.

[01:33] Melbourne is my home, but I have lived in Southeast Asia with my family now for over five years and currently in Singapore.

Lucy Bolan

[01:43] Excellent. Fantastic. Okay. Well, we're going to sort of, I think I came across you, I was thinking we had a discussion around this. I think it was maybe 2000 and I don't know, 16 or 17.

[01:54] And I think at the time you were at Village Roadshow, I think from memory. And I know you've been a leader or CMO or marketing director, we'll call it, for a while now. So I guess my first question that I'm really curious to ask.

[02:08] So take us back. Did you think the role of a CMO really was what it was before you were actually in it or became one?

Mohit Bhargava

[02:18] Well, that's a great question. The short answer is no. And I frankly think the role of a marketing leader, let's not worry about titles, really does vary from company

[02:30] to company, industry to industry. And that's just something that you have to learn to accept. and and then you know it it does uh force you to be a bit more agile um you know compared to us you know compared to perhaps another function in the business in the

[02:48] leadership team like a finance they have a very there is a set operating model right and in a in a marketing framework depending on the industry you're in and the role of marketing within the

[02:58] organization that framework will change quite quite dramatically so um yeah, the answer is I did not know what I was going to be doing as time went

Lucy Bolan

[03:10] on and I've learned along the way. I bet, I bet. I was looking back at your experience, I mean, you started off agency land, is that right? I think Life Lounge? Yeah, yeah. Look, I mean,

Mohit Bhargava

[03:23] I think the, so let's, yeah, let's unpack that. So I was thinking about you know when you sort of reached out like the journey that has been so the way I landed my first job was actually really interesting so I used to be a bartender

[03:37] at the university pub and that's what I did to pay the bills through uni and you know I was like I really really sort of leaned in on campus life I was a student club I was student union president

[03:50] and you know did all kinds of extracur, anything to make sure that I paid for less beers and enjoyed my time meeting new people. I was just genuinely curious and university was a great,

[04:04] great opportunity to sort of, you know, really expose myself to people from all over the world. And, you know, I think through that journey, what was really interesting in my final year,

[04:17] I'd done a finance degree, believe it or not. And I realized after an internship that I did not want to work in finance. And I went back to the pub to just keep working

[04:27] whilst I figured out what I'm going to do next. And on a Friday, as it is today, this gentleman walked into the bar and he was too well dressed to be an academic, nothing against

[04:37] the academics, but I worked in the pub long enough to spot one and uh and he was definitely not a student so i you know i sort of just broached the guy and said hey what what brings you to you know having seen you around

[04:52] to spark the conversation as you do and he went you know look he's recently taken on a job as the marketing director for jim bean bourbon uh he finds university campuses to be really interesting

[05:04] as recruitment platforms uh quite frankly you know people can drink from the age of 18 in australia and by 21 they've decided what they're gonna are they're a wine person a beer person all those

[05:15] things and yeah they're probably a nothing person but you know in those days that was how it was and um and you know i said oh wow how interesting and i sort of started to talk about my experience as a

[05:26] university barkeep the fact that i'd done some business courses and I, you know, and how a brand could sort of navigate the university framework because I knew a bit about that being the student union president.

[05:39] And I think that really sparked his interest and he gave me his business card and said, look, I'm looking to build something and why don't you give me a call if you're, you know,

[05:50] if you're interested in having a chat. I could have quite easily, as I have done before, never made a phone call, but I chose to make that call. And what led on from

[06:01] that was a three-year journey working with Jim Beam as a brand. They did not have an office in Melbourne, so they set up through an agency called Life Lounge. And I worked exclusively on a program

[06:15] called Jim Beam on campus for the next three years, building that up for what is, you know, a global FMCG brand. So we built it from scratch and that was a lot of fun.

[06:27] You know, we, and in some ways, my journey in movie culture started then because the whole premise was, was built on a movie called Van Wilder Party Liaison,

[06:39] which featured Ryan Reynolds many years ago. And he was the big man on campus, knew everybody. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I think the lesson in that is a little bit of curiosity and how what I was doing outside the classroom actually played a bigger role

[06:57] in me being able to, A, get a job, but also pivot from what I studied at uni into something that I probably was better suited to professionally.

[07:10] So, yeah, so I think that's how it started. You know, he's a great boss and I've been fortunate all the way. I've had great bosses who've become sponsors and supporters and they've, you know, supported me all along.

[07:28] I mean, to be honest, even the job I'm in now, I would not, I think an ex-boss played a big part in me, you know, securing this role. So it is circular and the journey is not, you know,

[07:43] in most instances you reap what you sow.

Lucy Bolan

[07:48] I find that really fascinating and thank you for sharing that because,

Mohit Bhargava

[07:51] Yeah, of course.

Lucy Bolan

[07:53] I always find it really interesting how people at least started their careers. I mean, gosh, I did my degree in textile science and look at me now, I mean, I'm a recruiter. You know, we all go down these individual paths, don't we? Yeah how incredible. Is it fair to say have you been quite intentional about your

[08:10] careers? I mean from my perspective you know you really strike me as a very smart guy and I think what you said there about being curious I mean gosh that is so powerful I think to have you know in general. Have you been, have you

[08:23] always wanted to be at that top spot or is it it's just obviously you know taking

Mohit Bhargava

[08:27] time or if I'm just trying to understand the ambition? Look I think I'm just trying to understand the ambition. Look, I think I'm an ambitious person, but ambition is, I'm driven in many ways. I was never about landing in a top spot and I'm away from, you know, in the kind of organisation

[08:43] where we're a massive organisation, not being a top spot. So I think what I've been driven by really is first and foremost, I do want to be able to work with high interest brands, or at least

[09:01] doing high interest work, even if I'm working with a low interest brand. So that has definitely gravitated my interest towards working in the media and entertainment

[09:12] landscape. And then there's the element of, you spend your years in a particular vertical. That's where your professional brand is built.

[09:24] Your network is built and opportunities do tend to stem from within that network. So, you know, I think, you know, have I always known or wanted to be in this space? Well, from day one, probably not.

[09:39] But there is a common theme in my journey, as you've identified, that, you know, even when I was with Jim Beam and fmcg really alcohol marketing to a great extent is entertainment marketing and then when you go to one of these lova and um and fm radio and and so

[09:54] on again you are really marketing and entertainment culture and then there you go into cinemas and you know over time uh phil you know so you do start to see that there are transferable themes about

[10:09] marketing entertainment and particularly out of home. And that's been the common thread that has benefited me. So where this learnings and experiences have been transferable one, you know,

[10:22] one industry to another within within largely and entertainment landscape.

Lucy Bolan

[10:29] Yeah, I mean, you're so right as well. I mean, you think about, you know, starting from an alcohol brand and how that filters into, you know, really entertainment, I mean, the two to a degree, it's hand in filters into you know really entertainment i mean the two to a degree it's hand in hand you know to some degree yeah it makes com makes complete sense um as you've been come

[10:44] i'm curious to know and we're getting right into the nitty-gritty here but as a leader what's what would you say is one of the the hardest calls that you've had to make a lot of times i mean i think

Mohit Bhargava

[10:56] it will change me as a person to be honest but um i can really to to southeast asia in the middle of COVID. I was hired before the pandemic hit. And one of the reasons that I accepted was the brief was gross.

[11:12] And unfortunately, the industry was completely paralyzed by the pandemic. And the owners and promoters of the business still decided to bring me over because none of us really knew how long this was going to last.

[11:26] But they were convinced that there will be an industry on the other side and they still needed talent so i thanked them for that and their trust um but yeah i mean the the hardest call was when when i sort of came into this organization was really our opex

[11:40] was untenable and and it was not a marketing decision it was a business decision and we were operating in the absence of a ceo so i was part of the ex-co that reported into the board. And, you know, as a newcomer

[11:56] into a new country and a new business and having to make some fairly harsh calls on people's livelihoods, the structure of the entire organization and how we sustain ourselves

[12:09] was really challenging. It really was because, you know, I was not really as much as I'd like to think that I have a multicultural bent until you leave Australia and live in another country you don't appreciate the sensitivities that exist and the nuances that really play a

[12:25] role in every you know in work culture um but yeah I mean I had to make some very hard decisions and and that I have to live with but I knew at the time that it was absolutely the right thing and

[12:39] frankly we did not have many options so yeah I mean that would be some of the toughest stuff that i've had to deal with um yeah i mean the marketing and the subject matter piece is quite frankly

Lucy Bolan

[12:53] minuscule in in comparison yeah look at and i know for a fact there'll be a couple of leaders listening to this that will absolutely be nodding their heads they're going oh yeah i'm in that at

[13:04] the moment you know or they perhaps just had to unfortunately make redundancies, which we know is pretty rife in the market, unfortunately. A curious question, I guess, well, curious from my perspective,

[13:16] and I'm sure many others, because I guess to dovetail nicely into that point, there's also a lot of people looking for work at the moment. So as a leader, and I know it obviously depends very much on the role

[13:28] that you're recruiting, but broadly, what do you tend to look for?

Mohit Bhargava

[13:33] It's a good question. broadly, what do you tend to look for? It's a good question. Um, I mean, I think firstly, the nature of marketing and the nature of meaning to speak to, to our organization. There is a requirement now, I mean, even myself included, I don't know, cancel throws anymore. You have to be able to demonstrate that you are a practitioner, you're willing

[13:56] to roll up your sleeves and that doesn't come from talk, you that's that's something that you know has to be demonstrated through your journey um so that's something that i would definitely look for i look

[14:07] for that in myself every day so uh you know um i think that is that is crucial but in terms of what i would look for i think it's really informed by first and foremost it is my job to know what is

[14:22] the role of marketing in the organization. As I mentioned to you earlier, marketing in the business could be a service, it could be a growth driver, or frankly, it could be a, you know, to a great extent, it could be a marketing business. Like my current organization,

[14:35] Ruby Studios have two key pillars, distribution of content and marketing of content. So we are essentially a marketing driven business. So all three different organizations will require different hard and soft skills from people.

[14:50] Somebody who is suited for a marketing service oriented team may not be very well suited for a growth oriented team. So I think, you know, I do keep that in my sort of zeitgeist as to what am I hiring for

[15:07] and what soft skills are needed to fill that role and perform effectively. Will this person be successful? Because, you know, there will be hard skills are hard skills, right? If someone's a good performance marketing individual,

[15:21] they've got that, you know, and they can demonstrate it. But like what I'm actually looking for is, are the soft skills suited to the type of marketing function we are hiring for? The other thing that I'm always looking for is chemistry. And this is really about what will keep us relevant in the world of AI.

[15:39] Good creative is impossible to attain without good chemistry between team members and even as a marketing leader between me and my line manager, because I need a certain level of

[15:50] autonomy and trust. So I think that element is something that I fish for. This is definitely not about familiarity bias. I think that is detrimental to building uh this is really about establishing how this

[16:05] individual thinks and problem solves um so i look for that and then you know i think in terms of for me selfishly over the years i've learned what are my blind spots and as leah you need to know

[16:20] what those are and i do find ways to put eyes on those blind spots so i will um yeah so i mean you know i'm i'm i think if you're looking uh i would my advice would be

[16:33] leaning a bit more on your soft skills uh i think i think that's important to them and then i know that's hard to do in but should you have the opportunity to have a conversation i think i would i would definitely not i'd be leaning in a little bit more to that trying to build a bit of

[16:47] chemistry um and and and i'm trying to listen a bit i I mean, I think I've been effective in most instances. I mean, most of my opportunities to be apart from one have not come from linear interviews,

[17:00] to be honest. But when that process, I have, through every interaction and opportunity, to really try to understand, A, the person that's hiring me. Two, what are they looking to solve?

[17:13] What is the actual problem they're looking to solve? And I've tried to sort of reverse pitch to that, to both to the person and the problem, you know, because, you know, if you're interviewing me, I'll kind of highlight it to you.

[17:28] Like what am I looking for? And I mean, if you look deep enough and speak to enough people who perhaps worked with me, they'll tell you what I look for or what are my blind spots.

[17:40] And I'll definitely look to hire for that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I mean definitely look to hire for that.

Lucy Bolan

[17:42] Yeah, yeah. Okay. I mean, look, yeah, I think nowadays, especially even from a recruitment perspective, you know, I can also add to that, you know, it's trying to match personalities as well.

Mohit Bhargava

[17:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially when I'm interviewing perhaps more the junior individuals

Lucy Bolan

[17:57] and they're coming across confident but not cocky.

[18:01] I think that's a real fine line there.

Mohit Bhargava

[18:03] Yeah, yeah, sure.

Lucy Bolan

[18:07] I'm going to move that name and kudos to those.

Mohit Bhargava

[18:09] Yeah.

Lucy Bolan

[18:11] You know, in terms of, and I'm going to touch on AI because we'd be crazy not to given the era we are now officially in, but just a lot of CMOs I've been having conversations with recently,

[18:22] they are literally swamped every day with so many platforms, people saying, we can do this, we can do that, you know. How are you deciding, if you're allowed to share this,what from an AI perspective is going to work for you and your team versus what isn't? Like, are you guys starting on that process?

[18:40] Are you absolutely ever thinking of it at the moment? I guess, how do you even begin to unpack that? Because what I find I'm struggling with is the time to then, you know, research all this.

Mohit Bhargava

[18:51] So two part answer. First part is as an organization, there is a lot of work that's going into this. And unfortunately, I'm not at the liberty to share too much in that space.

[19:03] Now, in terms of day-to-day work and how we are operating as a team, look, the space we're in is, you know, it's a highly visualized environment, right?

[19:14] Our work is driven by that. So not getting into the detail, but there are several efficiencies that this brings, particularly in terms of pace and agility.

[19:26] And, you know, and we will look to lean in wherever we can directly or through partners to help us become quicker to market, be more relevant in market. I mean, this is not an AI specific response, but like in my current role, we distribute films in 19 countries.

[19:45] We are in multiple languages and there's a lot of work that goes into making that happen, right? So I'm sure any organization would look for efficiencies

[19:57] to make your, particularly your pace to market and your efficiency element better. But what we are committed to, and I know, I mean, this goes all the way top down in the creative and art space.

[20:11] This is a very sensitive topic. This is in the public domain. And, you know, we do believe there is a huge component of, you know, art. I mean, I can speak. I'm not speaking on the company's behalf here. This is a personal conversation.

[20:23] I personally believe art is, you know, there's human energy that drives art. And I find it difficult as an individual to power the world where it can be entirely replaced by technology.

[20:40] But there are definitely ways that efficiencies can be created.

Lucy Bolan

[20:46] Yeah, and enhanced for sure. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned earlier, we were talking about, and you did touch on it, that throughout your career, is it fair to say a lot of it has been from networks that you've landed in specific roles is that is that fair to say

Mohit Bhargava

[21:04] um i'd like to think that has a little bit to do with the kind of work you've done as well but um i think it's it's it's uh definitely has helped right so as i mentioned i mean i think

[21:15] people are when you're operating in an industry particularly once you reach a certain stage in uh of your career i think anyone who is invested in that industry is observing the work that has been done in the industry.

[21:29] Yeah. And eventually who is doing that work. And over time, I think your whole career becomes an interview, right? So, yeah, I just can't imagine me performing well in an interview on one day will change the fate of my whole career.

[21:46] It just doesn't work like that. So I'm halfway, if not longer into my journey already. I think I can't undo what I've done in the past. There are lessons in that, but that speaks to who I am today.

[21:59] And what I do today will determine how things pan out perhaps tomorrow. I mean, there will always be uncontrollables in the, in the journey. There could be a merger tomorrow. And, you know, I, I get a, I get an email or a phone call saying, thanks very much.

[22:13] And often that has got little to do with me individually but that might have a lot to do with billions of dollars in in corporate profit so again you just have to as hard as that is i

[22:26] choose to sort of focus on the controllables and um yeah so to answer your question networks help but frankly even a good person in your network will not stick their neck out for you unless you are able to get the job done yeah yeah yeah yeah it comes with credibility

Lucy Bolan

[22:46] you know i think yeah and especially nowadays i mean you know people will ask me to refer them etc and i'm always happy to do that but it comes down to your personal reputation i think as well

[22:59] and if i'm going to recommend somebody yes you know they've got to be right 100 i, it's how it goes, right? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I'm curious to know, so what advice would you give to mid-level marketers that are,

[23:16] because there's a lot, to be really frank, who I speak to who are really looking at salary packages right now, because the cost of living is going up and everyone wants to be earning the high, you know, the big bucks.

[23:26] And so in their mind to do that, they go, right, well, I've got to be a head of marketing. I've got to be senior. I've got to be a head of marketing. I've got to be senior. I've got to lead a team. And I can tell you now, and I know you know this, there's a lot that think that they're ready for that. And they're actually possibly just not leaders, you know? So I guess

[23:43] my question is, what advice would you give those people that are really aiming for that top spot? And there might be some that are, you know, absolutely fantastic and destined for it. But what would you say to them, given that we're in this blended world at the moment of soft skills versus digital you know AI what advice would you

Mohit Bhargava

[23:59] give them okay so I think there's there's probably a there's a few aspects this question first is you know this idea of leadership I think again leadership and again I'm no expert you know I'm

[24:15] no leadership coach I can only speak to what has worked for me I've always sought out opportunities opportunities to take on responsibility and and you can argue those are leadership roles but

[24:26] in some cases they weren't or from the very get-go from school to uni to professional roles right and and i think what that does is it builds your self-awareness it builds your leadership muscles

[24:38] and it really you know because leadership skills compound over time they don't you don't just get a job one day as a leader and then you go, today I'm ready to lead because I've listened to Mo on a podcast.

[24:51] It just doesn't work like that. So I think first and foremost, start acting as a leader from today. And even if you don't have leadership roles in a work setting, you can find leadership roles in extracurricular settings, you know, be it your local sports club, be it your community, be it areas of interest interest there are many ways to lead people behave in similar

[25:16] frame in a similar manner in group settings whether it's at work whether it's in that you know you it just there are certain attributes and behaviors and you will learn how to deal with that

[25:28] in a much much better way if you start early and you you've you know you've and i think when you meet people you you generally can particularly someone in your line of work you know you could

[25:39] probably assess quite quickly whether this person has truly had some level of experience in guiding people supporting a team supporting a family and and i think that really helps that actually those

[25:54] attributes transfer across so firstly my advice would be to not wait for the job just just get on with your own jobs to be done and and and and think

[26:06] good things will come yeah and i think the other part of this is this is again like you know just me being brutally honest with you you've got to grow your bubble you know everybody lives in a bubble i mean you can you're i know you're based in melbourne i can give you a melbourne analogy

[26:20] um somebody who lives in bayside uh of melbourne you know i've met people for them, an adventure is going to Preston. So that is a bubble, right?

[26:31] Like it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, and, but they speak so confidently with worldviews and you're like, well, you know, you've got to really grow your bubble to, to be effective because unless you have a wider perspective, you're never going to be effective in, in

[26:45] a, in a leadership capacity because people will offer different perspectives. And unless you've grown your bubble over time it's it's it's gonna be challenging the second thing I will say to younger people is

[26:58] find a way to sell something whether it's a side hustle or you take up a sales role it will change you it will change you it will change your appreciation for how business views marketing to how you do marketing so

[27:13] something anything I think you know you you really I took on you that was deliberate I took on some sales roles in the middle of my career and I I've never let it go I've always tried to sort of take on sales and marketing type of roles and it

[27:31] changes your positioning in an organization but more importantly he changes you as an individual and as a marketer which particularly in today's climate is paramount if you don't have a commercial bone in your body it's going to be tough yeah so

[27:46] i think those are some aspects uh in the technical sense you've got to really you know you've got to really learn and get some level of mastery and short form content uh that is the language of

[27:59] marketing today um and if you're relying on an agency to do that for you i think that's yeah just try and get try and get your hands dirty i think that's, yeah, just try and get, try and get your hands dirty. I think

[28:10] that's, that's really important. And if you're in what stage of life you're in, if you're someone like me, I have to, I'm a father of two beautiful daughters. I'm in my mid forties. I've gradually

[28:22] realized that, you know, my incumbent position on the train, the curve has moved from an early adopter to somewhere in the middle. I'd like to think, but I think there are elements where I'm becoming more of a train lagger.

[28:34] Now, I can't do my job if I'm not in culture. I just can't. And this is a personal choice, but I don't sit here waiting for research agencies to tell me what's happened with Gen Z and

[28:48] millennials and so on. And, you know, it's just not a way that I believe I can remain relevant or effective. So that is a lifestyle choice. And again, that is for me personally,

[29:02] because that is where the market is for me. So I have to make sure that I am living in that space. I can't be observing it from level 28 and thinking that I'll be poor.

[29:17] So I think there are some fundamental aspects to how you can navigate can navigate this uh this space yeah i think some really wise words

Lucy Bolan

[29:30] indeed yeah some really and i and i love what you said about you know just it's so simple but i mean you you bang on just grow your bubble you know and i love it bayside to preston analogy

Mohit Bhargava

[29:40] it's look it's it's so i grew up in australia i love it it's it's home but there are we have you know i think if you look at it from an outside-in perspective and how

[29:52] leaders are shaped and groomed in other markets or regions, you know, there is a deliberate effort being put into widening people's perspective, right?

[30:05] I have met more CEOs in Sydney or Melbourne that have never lived in either of those two cities. They have just, you know, been in one city journey and now your Endeavor is to be a CEO of an a pack business

[30:18] So not saying it can't be done, but I think that individual does take time to really grow into the role And and you know, it's it's and it does does really lead to a sea of sameness to write and that is where I think

[30:34] Yeah, I see the marketing profession how it's seen and viewed in Australia today. And, you know, we asked for this, you know, we've probably swung into see your sameness

[30:46] for the last, you know, a few years. And I think we're not in good shape. The marketing industry is not in good health. You've been quite candid about that with me when we spoke earlier.

[30:59] So you've got to, you know, you've got to really, you know, there's bigger things at stake here. I think the health and the industry at large so grow your bubble we've got to yeah you've got to get out of the swinging in sameness it's just

[31:12] not gonna uh register relevant as marketers yeah i couldn't agree more bang on well we've got some

Lucy Bolan

[31:19] questions from our fabulous i've got two questions i'm going to cover just from uh the wonderful guys on linkedin who uh knew that i was and i was interviewing you so this one i thought straight straight to the juggler um so if you

Mohit Bhargava

[31:32] lost your job tomorrow how would you rebuild your career okay um if i lost my job tomorrow i would first and foremost take a little bit of time uh so if i didn't lost my job i would take a bit of time

[31:47] i think i've set myself up in a way that i can bring to organizations uh that i

[32:00] believe are of value and i know what organizations i would reach out to what some individuals that i would reach out to that would be my phase one um approach to see what opportunities uh that can Phase two, I'm not opposed to entrepreneurial type of engagements.

[32:27] And I see a lot of Australian businesses currently trying to navigate APAC in Southeast Asia, and they require informed and trusted resources that understand both worlds.

[32:44] And I think I would lean in on that quite quite heavily and yeah and as a third element i would be doing more of this i would actually i mean i can't remember the last time i did a podcast to be honest but it's been a long time and um i would be putting myself out there through

[33:01] the channels that are available to me um and you know i would argue that i've i've done the work to to to be sitting here having this conversation so i will try and have

Lucy Bolan

[33:14] have more of these yeah yeah absolutely absolutely see what the world brings see what the world brings i love it i love it well i think you nailed that i think there's a lot of people i mean you know you're talking from your perspective but i think there's a lot that can take that okay well

[33:28] i can review it in terms of who i am in my industry background the final question which I mean, look, I personally get asked this myself, so I'd love to also understand from your perspective, your viewpoint. In this day and age, what are your thoughts? Is

[33:43] it better for a marketer, do you think, to specialize specifically in a specific remit of marketing or do you think it's smarter for them to become a lot more broader?

Mohit Bhargava

[33:54] You need to have both. If I was being blunt, you need to have at least one superpower and then you have to become, you have to build on that and that's what's going to get you a job and then you grow your career, but you

[34:09] cannot let go of your superpower because you will realize very quickly that, I mean, I do both. I'm a horizontal and a vertical contributor in my team.

[34:21] That is something that, yeah, I mean, as I said earlier in the conversation that you have to remain a practitioner so that your value quadrant

Lucy Bolan

[34:30] remains relevant um yeah yeah love it and final final last parting words here legacy mo what what would you like to be remembered as a fabulous CMO anything anything you'd love your

[34:44] team to to really or you'd hope them to at least remember you of oh wow i mean look i i think i

Mohit Bhargava

[34:52] to be honest i mean i i have a bud have a Buddhist and Hindu bent in terms of my faith. So I fundamentally, the word legacy is too large, you know, nothing is permanent. And to think that I would have some sort of legacy is really, I think that's very self-indulgent.

[35:09] But what I do believe in is, firstly, the facts, right? I've been very fortunate to work with some great brands and companies. And, you know, and that has led to me working with some great people

[35:23] and great bosses. Well, almost all great bosses. And I think, but to be honest, I think even when there was a phase where I was, you know, in a role that I realised quickly

[35:36] that this was not the best fit for me, I probably learned more about myself in that space of time then I did over ten years when everything was working for me so so I think it was needed what am i my legacy

[35:51] so two parts one is people yeah people that have reported to me I take immense pride in seeing them develop and go on and do great things and many of them are

[36:02] that gives me right enormous enormous an enormous sense of satisfaction yeah that's down the chain up the chain as i've touched on earlier i can i'm in contact with almost all my previous bosses um

[36:18] and i would happily partner with them again and i think that that to me is is professional legacy campaigns come and go um there's there's really but what what I do also appreciate is capability. When you join an organization

[36:35] and if you are successful in changing how that organization markets for the better, and that capability remains or they build on that after you're gone, that is of value.

[36:49] I believe I've achieved that in, you know, I was employee number one in digital in 2006, I think it was, or 2005 at Nova.

[37:02] And that was genuinely, I was, within my first week, the senior executive told me, you are an experiment. And from that to being there for six years, changing how the business markets and create product and, you know,

[37:17] collaborating with digital pioneers at the time, such as MySpace, which, gosh but yeah so i mean i think that to me is those

[37:27] are things that give me a sense of satisfaction that you know you've changed and elevated capability both in people in businesses that has transcended beyond you that is of value

[37:39] and some of the relationships that i carry both people who have worked for me and people that I have worked for. Yeah, I cherish that the most, to be honest.

Lucy Bolan

[37:49] Yeah, yeah. Love it. Well, look, thank you so much, Mo. I think, yeah, I mean, I've learned a lot about you as well. I feel like we could lock in another hour and unpack all sorts. But obviously, time isn't always on our side.

[38:00] But thank you so much. I think there's going to be a lot of listeners that are going to really resonate with a lot that you've shared today. So thank you. It's been absolutely great to have you on board i really appreciate it

[38:16] remember the road to CMO isn't always linear it's filled with challenges decisions and moments of transformation whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift the experiences

[38:27] wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable thank you for joining us keep dreaming big keep pushing boundaries and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination

[38:40] as it is about the growth you experience along the way. Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END

Lucy Bolan

[00:02] Welcome to the CMO Chapters Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top

[00:14] marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to lead and innovate in the ever

[00:33] evolving landscape of business. Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand. I am delighted to have the fabulous Libby Hodgson join us today, the CMO at UNICEF. Thank

[00:51] you, Libby, for being part of the CMO Chapters Podcast. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. So Libby, I've got an awesome, I'm really excited, I've got to say, to be interviewing

[01:02] you. I think I first came across you at the ACAM event last year in Sydney. And yeah, there was a lot of, already just from what you shared around AI, I was really, really quite, yeah, blown away and really intrigued.

[01:15] So I've got a few questions which we're going to cover, but I thought today, if we can start a bit of a quick intro from you and then we'll kick things off.

Libby Hodgson

[01:25] Yeah, absolutely. As you said, I'm Libby Hodgson. I currently am the CMO or Chief Marketing Officer at Unicef Australia. I've been here since about 2020. So I was one of those people who had that

[01:38] rare experience of joining a new organisation during lockdown and getting to know everybody through a screen before you met them in real life. Prior to that, my career has spanned a number of different organizations.

[01:51] I actually worked for UNICEF in the UK before I moved to Australia. I held a number of different roles at Taronga Zoo. And before that, began way back in financial services.

[02:02] But I think the various disciplines of marketing have always been the common thread through my different career and roles.

Lucy Bolan

[02:09] Is it fair to say when you look back at the beginning of your career, I mean, I'm just curious to understand this. I mean, have you always been quite ambitious and driven? Like, did you have your sights on getting to a senior leadership role at some point? Or is that,

[02:24] you know, like most people, I guess, come with a little bit of confidence along the way to finally

Libby Hodgson

[02:30] get that? I think I've always had a certain amount of drive to step out of my comfort zone and do things a bit different. If I look right the way back, even from when I, and I've often wondered actually, did I do myself any favours through

[02:45] this or not? But through the process of leaving school, choosing college, choosing courses, I always took a different choice to the majority. I went, took a choice to do a course that took me to a different college. I often kind of split from the pack. And I think I did that in my working life as well. But I also think and I look I think

[03:06] this is probably a question maybe a lot of women in leadership roles or people in leadership roles would find kind of the reflection in. I don't think when I began my career and it was as many

[03:18] people I began as a to be in a very

[03:32] senior leadership role. And I think a few chance opportunities and a few, that's definitely been an ambition in the latter half of my career and one that I've been lucky to realise. But in the

[03:45] early, very early stage of my career, it didn't even occur to me that I could put my sights there.

Lucy Bolan

[03:51] Yeah. It's quite remarkable, isn't it? I mean, you know, I speak to many leaders like yourself, and often it's the case, I mean, we all start somewhere, but then isn't it interesting where we eventually land? And you know what, we've all still got a couple of years still in us,

[04:04] so the journey's not stopped yet. Most definitely. Yeah, most of us are still halfway for sure. Oh dear. Okay. All right. And when you look back, is there anything that you wish you'd changed? Any decisions you think, God, I wish I'd started earlier there

[04:21] or I wish I hadn't worked in that industry and maybe gone here instead? Is there any reflections there?

Libby Hodgson

[04:28] Do you know what? There aren't. There aren't because I always think when you, because I really love the work I do. I love the people I work with and the job I do. I think I made a conscious choice to move into the,

[04:42] more of the full purpose sector. I don't think I really, I had a mixture of motivations for doing that at the time. Some were very values orientated, some were very practical and professional orientated.

[04:55] But I think it's led me on a pathway where I've been able to do the work I love in organizations I really enjoy working in. So I think if you think that where you are now is the sum total of all of those decisions

[05:07] you've made along the way, then no, I don't look back oh damn I had that sliding doors moment that I didn't take but at the same time of course if I look back over my career there are many things I would do differently I think anybody who says otherwise is probably not

Lucy Bolan

[05:25] being wholly honest look absolutely I think there's yeah and I can also yeah speak to that myself you know you look back and you're like god I can't believe I actually said that or did that but hey lesson learned off we go I guess on that given that I mean it dovetails quite

[05:40] nicely to one of my many many other questions I've got down my sleeve but learnings I mean what would you say I guess you know has there been any hard learnings that you've experienced

[05:53] throughout your career that you think you know you'd feel comfortable sharing that might benefit

Libby Hodgson

[05:58] you know other marketers I think there's a few different things that I've learned. And I think one, probably the biggest, that is still an ongoing learning through my career,

[06:12] is the ability to deal with conflict and be comfortable with conflict. And I think that's something that I experienced. I turned, quite a while back, I moved into a new role that I didn't probably have the

[06:28] full appreciation at the time that it was a brand newly created role, which is always quite a unique thing when you step into something that's new in an organization. And yeah, I think it was the first time I really came up against quite antagonistic colleagues

[06:44] that I needed to learn to work with. I didn't have this reflection at the time. At the time, I just really experienced conflict in the workplace that I needed to deal with. And that was a challenge. Looking back, I think the big learning I've taken from that is that

[06:59] actually the role that I went into was a new role in the organisation that overlapped with all of these other people's roles. And no one had really been given clarity over the purpose I was there

[07:13] to serve or the changes it meant for them. So they themselves were dealing with change. And I think that's been a lesson to me in that clarity with people in their kind of roles, responsibilities, you know, that kind of clear is kind mentality and approach.

[07:30] But I think in a much larger context, I've, as I've evolved professionally, and I think with just age and experience, been able to become more comfortable with that, with conflict in the

Lucy Bolan

[07:45] workplace. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a great, a great answer because at the end of the day, I mean, I don't really know anyone that's super, if I'm honest, that's really comfortable. That's an absolute expert necessarily at dealing with conflict. You know, I think for most people,

[08:01] it's an uncomfortable, you know, thing that, you know, especially when you're a leader, it's like, oh God, you know, often there's no training. You just get thrown in the deep end

Libby Hodgson

[08:09] and off you go. And there's something, there's something about that ability to be kind of okay with discomfort. And sometimes that's in the weight of decisions you need to make or the implication of decisions

[08:23] that you make. But it's that being able to compartmentalize sometimes and have things that are uncomfortable, but it's okay.

Lucy Bolan

[08:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Within our audience and the listeners that, you know, we have within this podcast, we've got quite a few who are in that, I'm going to say, sort of like mid-level kind of marketing manager that one day really want to, you know, get to the C-suite or head off role.

[08:49] And then you've also got, on the other hand, a lot of CMOs as well who are, you know, curious and want to tap into, you know, stories. I'm curious to know if you were giving advice to, you know, I'm talking more the junior end, perhaps the specialist marketers in this market.

[09:05] In your opinion, what skills do you think and I know there's an obvious one coming here but what skills would you say you know these individuals or even marketing managers in general really need to be doing or focusing on to stay relevant wow it's such a I think you

Libby Hodgson

[09:21] can give a different answer to that question every year at the moment um I think I heard somebody use really struck me as interesting and so true. They were talking about a variety of professions,

[09:37] but certainly marketing professions. And they referred to them, the conversation was actually about the impact that AI is having on the entry level of the workforce and what's going to happen

[09:48] if that experience disappears. That's where the conversation was. But the phrase they used was they referenced kind of marketing as a profession, as an apprentice profession, which apprenticeships in marketing

[10:01] is not a concept I've ever thought of before. But actually when you think about it, and as I look back to my own career, starting as a marketing assistant, before that, actually I did a lot of secretarial work, which is

[10:13] office-based administrative work. But I think those stepping stones of experience build out the full skillset that you need in a marketing leadership role.

[10:26] And I think the skills that you need in marketing are different at different stages. So I think early, early on in a marketing career, a lot of the work you do is around project management, delivery, execution.

[10:41] I think as you go up through the stages, you need to start to have that ability to think strategically, that ability to think whole organization. The roles that I've done in a marketing sense have always been highly commercial

[10:57] with direct financial outcomes. I think financial literacy is a really important skill that a lot of people don't have to an adequate level to really enable them to progress well.

[11:12] And I think once you, once you progress to the more senior stages to be honest it's about people it's about stakeholder liaison it's people management it's about offsetting different

[11:24] different needs but I think it's being open to the I think it's looking at the roles as the skills you're going to gain from them as much as the job or the title because it's the combination of those

[11:39] skills that all over time and AI is just going to come along and change the whole shooting box

Lucy Bolan

[11:46] of what we all need to do and how we need to work. Just a bit. And I guess that brings me on quite a nice question because I mean we're gonna we're gonna talk about it but I've been having a lot

[11:56] of conversations at the moment with various leaders myself where we're talking more around how the importance of soft skills it really needs to be put into play given that we're all in this heavily you know digitized world um so when i'm hopefully

[12:12] interviewing marketers at the moment i mean i've done this for a long long time but i'm always looking at how you articulate yourself you know are you confident without being cocky you know

[12:22] that have you got empathy like what's your emotional you know intelligence like all that stuff i feel like personally from my perspective it's going to become even more needed, like that strength, as much as we can have AI,

[12:35] technical expertise. I think, you know, my personal opinion is how it blended together. What are your thoughts?

Libby Hodgson

[12:42] I 100% agree. I had a really interesting, this is off the topic of marketing, but saying how, you know, conversation I had years and years back and someone was talking about the skills and the talents that we nurture right

[13:02] early on from education phase and they were using the example of a surgeon versus a carpenter right so the two children at school who the one who will become the surgeon arguably is the more academic

[13:19] and has taken that very heavy kind of academic pathway through school to reach that level as they should i want all students to have that good level of training. The one who's a carpenter has an innate talent and ability to create, which effectively is what many surgeons do.

[13:36] And they were saying, which of those skills can be learned? Which is the easier to teach and be learned? But we bias right upfront, I think, to those technical specialisms. And I think

[13:48] wholeheartedly agree what people need and what I value the most when I'm hiring into my team is that emotional intelligence you said it empathy the kind of abstract reasoning the critical thinking and I

[14:03] think more and more we need the education system to catch up that they're the priority outcomes not not taught because information is available at the press of a button now.

Lucy Bolan

[14:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there's a lot that quite easily are going to be like, oh, yeah, I know this and I can access it. And look at me, aren't I amazing? What about the ones who've actually got the real personalities

[14:28] and the right attitude? They're the ones that are going to stand out.

Libby Hodgson

[14:31] And the conversation I referenced earlier about kind of the impact of AI on the workplace is saying how AI and technology tools can give this sort of fake capability bump to people.

[14:45] Yeah. But very quickly, their lived experience taps out. And if you're not gaining that experience, you're not able to progress and deploy technology

[14:57] for what it's actually needed for.

Lucy Bolan

[14:59] Which, yeah, curious to ask as well. So when I came across you, I think it was last year at the ACAM event, I was really, because I think back then I hadn't really at that point, if I'm honest, listened or

[15:14] spoken to as many CMOs that were really, you know, in that mid of implementing AI across their teams and departments. There's a lot of conversation. There was a lot that absolutely were preparing for it some very early days into it.

[15:28] But what I found quite interesting, I felt like you were really in the thick of it you know and you were already able to share okay well this is what we've learned this is what's working really well you know are you able to share anything there because i think there's going to be a lot of

[15:41] people that would love to hear you know what's working and i guess how did you even begin to start thinking because i mean nowadays there's so many platforms out there how do you even begin to

Libby Hodgson

[15:51] work out what's right for your organization there's a i gosh, where to begin with that? We're not taught for too long. There's a number of functional steps that we took. I think there's two things.

[16:05] I think there's the practical steps that we took to introduce and adopt AI and the way we did it that were catalytic. Also think it was the culture and values of the organization that enabled us to do it.

[16:22] So I think it was very much that mix of right activities in the right place. From an activities perspective, we began from, we didn't begin from a technical place or a technology position. We began from our approach, our values and

[16:41] our guardrails for using AI. So we thought upfront, what do we want to use AI for? Where is the opportunity for us? What is okay for us to do with AI and what isn't. And we didn't know all the answers to that.

[16:54] So that was about putting in place a process and a structure whereby people could identify and nominate a particular AI tool or platform and a use for that tool and platform.

[17:07] And both would be approved independently to say, yeah, okay, you can use Canva. And yes, okay, you can use it to do this outcome. And then we evaluate that. outcome and then we evaluate that so that that enabled us to that in it that empowered teams to start using ai and it moved us out of that place of oh do we or don't we do ai and everyone paralyzed

[17:31] until we've made that decision so that was a game changer um then we had a really clear directive from our board from our ceo that ai was an opportunity for us. Our CEO very openly used the language around using AI to stretch

[17:49] as an organization, not shrink. And I think that went a long way along with some other targeted communications to address kind of the fear and concerns about AI, which are real and evolving.

[18:02] I think that's what a one and done conversation. And we've gone from there, we've done different structural things. So we, on a temporary basis, we aligned technology much more closely into my marketing remit

[18:14] so that we can accelerate the adoption of AI in a marketing context. We have an AI strategy that goes right across the business. And for us, that also looks externally at the kind of protection and the safety measures

[18:31] that are needed for children as AI evolves. And that's an interesting kind of then feedback loop into how we use AI ourselves. And it's gone from there. You know, we've had, we did a whole day session

[18:44] to get all the teams just sharing what they were doing, using tools.

Lucy Bolan

[18:48] Yeah, yeah.

Libby Hodgson

[18:49] Everybody has access to a basic AI tool and then different teams have bespoke tools depending on what they need. Always starts with the standpoint of what is the problem that we're trying to solve what is the business need that we need to fix or the advantage

[19:08] that we can gain as opposed to here's a nice piece of technology and how do we use it in terms of why it worked we have a very i would say kind of culturally safe organization where people are

[19:22] encouraged to experiment and do things differently and stretch outside of their roles. So that naturally leads to an environment where people bring forward ideas.

[19:33] We had structured our whole marketing discipline to be digital first years before kind of your large language model AI came about.

[19:46] That meant that we had a team that was very much concentrated around quite advanced level use of our data and digital and performance marketing skills, which basically meant that unintentionally we'd created the perfect team to adopt and ideate

[20:05] AI across the marketing place. So that helped. We had an excellent, highly skilled CIO who joined us, who was very progressive in her approach to introducing AI. So there's never one thing with these things. And I think it's,

[20:22] there's never one solution. It's the combination of all of those and it's the culture of the

Lucy Bolan

[20:28] organization. Sorry, that was a long answer. No, no. Well, I think it warrants the long answer. You know, there's a huge, a lot happening there behind the scenes. And I also think two things that resonate for me is I love how you as a leader, and it seems like it's a bit of a theme here that you've been able to empower

[20:46] you know the marketing team and division go right guys okay if you find platforms that you think would be beneficial for you in your role damn it you know and then we will decide if that because

[20:57] then at least you're giving that accountability to them and they're not thinking oh god well ai is going to take my job and oh god you know it's actually well no if anything we're actually saying use it you know it's going to enhance your what

[21:10] no it's gonna make things a lot better and then the second one being you've had all some leaders and you know it's a sweet board he's gone guys we're on this let's change you know which is huge huge yeah it is this and I think it's your

Libby Hodgson

[21:26] point about that empowerment one of the things that I know in my role is that across my team and the disciplines of marketing, there are people in the team who know their role so much better than I do. And their skills and capabilities in that area of work

[21:41] is way beyond mine. And the time they have to put to deep thinking about their area of marketing is greater than mine. So they're far better placed to identify the opportunities and make

Lucy Bolan

[21:55] the recommendations than I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, it's if only other leaders can follow suit, then fantastic. I think there's going to be others that will be listening to this.

[22:05] And I mean, there'll be some that no doubt are already doing this. I've got no doubt, you know, very much at the beginning. I want to chat about personal brands. So there's there's a lot of talk around, you know, if you're looking for a new role now or if you're wanting to evolve and you want to develop yourself,

[22:22] you've really got to think professionally around your personal brand. And I look at some people that, you know, they do a lot around, I don't know, becoming a judge on a specific event, you know, or else they follow, they want to be a keynote speaker or they do a podcast or whatever it may be. Is that something that you personally have worked at yourself as you've got more senior in

[22:44] more leadership roles? And would you advise others to also really start getting onto this earlier rather than later?

Libby Hodgson

[22:52] If, yes, it is. And I think it is valuable for people to be seen for where their expertise is and be recognised for that.

[23:05] I think from a personal perspective, doing it means pushing myself out of my comfort zone. I'm not a person who will be kind of outwardly gregarious or showy in the things I do.

[23:19] But it is something that I've become more, more attuned to as my career has progressed. I was given some very sage advice once from someone when I was,

[23:31] it was about a particular award that I didn't enter. And I was like, oh, no, I can't, I can't enter that award. I was like, that's not my work. That's the work of all of the team. I can't claim all of that in my name.

[23:45] And they said, well, think of this as actually a great way to give recognition to your team. So I think that's been something that I've cultivated on, that it's not over-claiming or over-stating when you talk about your team's work

[23:58] if it's giving the right and appropriate recognition to everything that everybody does to achieve outcomes. I also think there's a role for people to champion each other.

[24:11] So as I said, it doesn't come naturally to me to do this. I've had the real benefit in the last couple of years of a couple of people who have put me forward for a number of different things.

[24:25] They've tagged me in LinkedIn posts. They referenced me in certain ways. The team at ACAM, for example, are great at doing that. And I think there's a role in that. It has kind of given me pause to reflect and think, well, who across my network can I do that for? Because I do think there's promote yourself, but also recognize the other people who you can help promote.

Lucy Bolan

[24:50] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of leaders that I meet. And I mean, even when I speak to them, they'll say, Lise, what can I do for you? And I just love that. I'm like you know here I am you know little Lucy

[25:02] a new champs of talent and I think yes you know that's that's their behavior is how they are within their team you know as well they're giving back you know to promote and you know support as

[25:12] well um you know really important absolutely and it's right I think you know it's interesting you look at people like yourself who are CMOs and you know you've got a huge, you know, UNICEF Australia, massive. Um, so naturally you think, oh, there'll be really confidence, but actually

[25:27] behind the scenes, it, it, you've got to work at it, you know?

Libby Hodgson

[25:30] Yeah. And everybody has their own kind of strengths and their own foibles and.

Lucy Bolan

[25:36] Yeah, absolutely. In your view in this day and age, bit of a question, but what do you think it takes to make the, in terms of, I'm looking at skills specifically, what, what skills in your view in this day and age do does a successful CMO need

Libby Hodgson

[25:57] to have they need to have whole a whole toolbox of skills I think I've mentioned a few of them already in just that I think they need to be strategic is such an overused word but I think

[26:14] the ability to understand the strategy of an organization. And I think really see how marketing is an enabler

[26:24] and an engine to an organization's outcomes. It's not the kind of, it's not the shiny wrapper around the edges that just does the adverts and communication lines. It's really how the

[26:37] business objectives, the product, the customer, whatever type of business it is, it's how all of that connects, stays relevant externally. And then I talk about kind of strategic thinking. That's what I mean.

[26:51] You've got to be good with people. You've got to be good with people. You need to be a communicator. You need to be able to articulate what you think to other people and have them understand the opportunity and the vision and things. And you need to be curious because the world doesn't stop. You know, you need to be constantly curious

[27:09] and open to the way things happen changing and doing things differently. Again, we're all living that at the moment, but it's true in many, many ways. And you've got to have a bit of inner resilience

[27:22] because most CMOs I know, they're expected to be across so many things. People, budgets, team, timelines, deadlines. Everyone pivots left, right and centre now and does things different.

[27:36] And you've got to be able to kind of hold all of those different things and not feel the weight of them too heavily. Because it's a lot of responsibility.

Lucy Bolan

[27:46] Do you, some CMOs I speak to say, you know what, I love what I do. I really do. And I love the company I work for, but it can feel lonely sometimes. Have you ever been in environments where, you know, you can kind of go, well, yeah,

[27:59] look, there are times when you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders or not really.

Libby Hodgson

[28:04] I think it depends on the organisation and the leadership team that you're in. And I think if I think of my career, I've had a real,

[28:17] I'm part of an excellent kind of executive leadership team in my current role and in my previous role who are very much, they're my team, they're my peers and they're the people who

[28:30] in a work context I look to for support or I'll brainstorm my problems with. For me, I think the lonelier sort of career phase was that kind of senior middle management where you don't, you

[28:46] have to have that slight professional distance from the people in your team and the managers in your team, but you're not part of that smaller leadership group.

[28:57] You're part of that bigger management cohort. So that's more the point in my career where I've been like, oh, who's my, I haven't got a person. If that makes sense. Yeah.

Lucy Bolan

[29:07] Yeah. Yeah. Right. No, absolutely. No, I think it does. I think it does. Do you think the, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. What? There's a couple of conversations I've had with CMOs. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. There's a couple of conversations I've had with CMOs around this, but they say, oh, you know, the role of CMO in the future, it's going to change into being a chief customer officer,

[29:25] or we're seeing all these chief growth officer roles now. Like, what are your thoughts there? I mean, do you see it at some point, you know, as AI just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and evolves?

[29:38] Do you think there's going to be any changes in that role

Libby Hodgson

[29:40] I think they're all just

[29:43] words I hate job titles I think yeah I think marketing marketing has always had to be the champion of customers I think yes if in my experience of marketing the primary outcome

[29:56] is always some form of growth whether that's brand growth financial growth company growth the role of like one of the things that I found really pleasing and rewarding to see is that the role of good creative is more important not less

[30:13] important in this kind of era of just this content plethora I think really good skilled creative is so valuable and the difference of it shines through more now than ever before I think it's

[30:28] data it's I think it's all I think it's all of those things. I think it's always chief of all trades and you're probably getting closer to it.

Lucy Bolan

[30:38] Oh dear, I love it. I love it. But we did have a question from some of the guys that follow me on LinkedIn and they sent through a question, which I thought, okay, I'm going to ask this.

[30:50] And it's a conversation that I've had with a few. I'm just curious to know, if you were looking back into your career, do you think that nowadays, or even, I guess, in general, is it important now to have a specialist skill set?

[31:09] Or is it better to keep it broad as being a marketing generalist if you want to evolve into a leader?

Libby Hodgson

[31:18] I think, oh, that's a great question. I think that the sweet spot is a blend of two. I think you will, now I don't know because the workplace

[31:32] is changing and marketing has changed dramatically since I started. But if I think of my own career, it started in direct marketing before even email marketing. It was direct marketing,

[31:49] financial services. And that was part of the reason that took me into the not-for-profit space was because it was pretty much credit cards or charities that were the big direct marketing vendors um and from there from a direct marketing

[32:04] background the progression into being the person in the team who evolved into digital was quite a natural step and that early specialism in digital marketing and i'm talking back in 2005 2005 very much accelerated my career progression for a couple of different reasons so I think

[32:25] early career a specialism is maybe valuable for faster progression but I think you need to branch out and build that generalist set to then evolve to the next level of leadership so at some point

[32:43] you need to be able you need to be given the opportunity to step into things that you haven't had experience in experience and you need to be willing to take on areas that where you you pretend where potentially

[33:00] you need to rely on the people in the team knowing that job better than you do yeah yeah yeah yeah

Lucy Bolan

[33:06] and I think like to your point earlier you said about being curious you know putting your hand up you know and actually going well I'm going to give that a go, you know, and sometimes you might start by going, I'm a bit out of my depth, but before you know it,

[33:19] you've got another skill to add to your, you know, your breadth and yeah, it creates that

Libby Hodgson

[33:24] more generalist kind of viewpoint. Yeah, absolutely. And that's very true of my background is across my career, I've periodically had leaders who've backed me to do something that they've seen I've had the potential

[33:42] to do but I haven't had the experience in doing and it that's that's where you if your growth

Lucy Bolan

[33:48] bumps uplifts come from yeah absolutely it gives you more confidence of course as well which is awesome you know we need more great leaders that's for sure yeah it does it does but I think

Libby Hodgson

[34:00] confidence confidence comes from experience of going oh, I've been in this situation before. I've navigated this previously. I can find my way through this.

Lucy Bolan

[34:10] Yeah. Yeah. I know what I'm doing. Absolutely. So to wrap things up, I guess, what's the legacy? I mean, and I know you've got a couple more years, I've got no doubt and bigger things still coming. I'm sure your way, you're definitely

[34:24] not finished yet. I've got no doubt, but I hope not.

Libby Hodgson

[34:32] My marketing eulogy. Yeah, it is a little bit like that look I think there's a couple of things I think one of the things that's great about marketing is you get to do work that lives on

[34:46] or be involved in things that carry on after you've handled them so there's a couple of different initiatives over time when I worked at Taronga Zoo I was instrumental in the Vivid Sydney activation happening at Taronga

[35:04] Zoo with the big, like animals. You get a lot of, long after I left there, I was still taking my kids back to experience that event. And there's a lot of pride in seeing things and going, oh, I was, I was part of why that

[35:17] came to exist. And I think in a, in marketing, there's lots of things like that, even if it's a piece of creative or a bit of copy that gets used again and again. And you go, I remember the day we signed that off.

[35:29] So I think those things are very visible things. But I think the piece to really be remembered of, and this is certainly true for me, and I think it spans all careers,

[35:42] the other people that you've helped along the way and the opportunities that you've enabled for people I've worked with, people who I've been responsible for and enabling their next career steps

[35:54] and what they've gone on to do.

Lucy Bolan

[35:56] Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, Libby, I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it. I know you're in a busy role, so thank you for making the time.

Libby Hodgson

[36:07] No, it's been great. Thank you. I've enjoyed the conversation.

Lucy Bolan

[36:13] Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining us.

[36:30] Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way. Until next time, continue to innovate,

[36:45] evolve and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END