Lucy Bolan

Welcome to the CMO Chapters Podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing

executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes

of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever evolving landscape of business stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the

brand okay so i am delighted to have the fabulous gabrielle dolan on i think we're now on episode one for the cmo chapters podcast so gabrielle welcome i'm so excited to be speaking to you, Lucy. I can't wait.

Yeah, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Really excited to have you on, actually, because, I mean, I feel like I've known you for, I want to say, I don't know now, six months, maybe, I think about, on and off.

Yes, hasn't been long. No, it hasn't been too long.

Gabrielle Dolan

It feels longer than six months.

Lucy Bolan

It does. It does indeed, in a good way. I've got a lot of questions. We've got a little bit to get through because, I mean, as we know, you've obviously written a book recently on story intelligence. So I've got a

bit there that I want to sort of dive into. But before we get into it, can you please introduce

Gabrielle Dolan

yourself? Well, my name is Gabrielle Dolan, as you said in the intro. Most people call me Rel. My little sister could never pronounce my name and she'd call me Gabriel. So Rel has stuck.

But I've spent the last 21 years of my career teaching business people how to communicate more effectively through stories. So prior to that, I worked at National Australia Bank. I worked in senior leadership roles and change management roles towards the end. And it was think storytelling is something people need to learn how to do better so I thought what the hell maybe

I could be that person to teach people having never run a business before or never taught storytelling before but I had actually done a lot of designing and delivering of leadership program so I knew I could design and deliver a leadership program around storytelling and yeah, that was 21 years ago. I thought I would, you know, just see if it worked out. If it didn't work out, I'd go back and get another job in corporate.

It'd be fair to say it's worked out.

Lucy Bolan

I think it's worked out really well. I mean, you've, what, 20 years now, 21 years?

Gabrielle Dolan

It's 21 years and counting. So, yeah, I worked in corporate for 20 years. And so now I've been out. But, yeah, clearly I still work very, very closely with corporate.

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

So why do you think, why storytelling? I mean, I'm just trying to think because, I mean, from my perspective, I feel like I'm only really getting into this now, if I'm being completely honest, since I've certainly got to know you

and obviously from reading your book and, you know, following you on LinkedIn. But let's go back 20 years ago. I can imagine storytelling back then. Was that a bit of a new sort of, oh, my God, what is this?

Gabrielle Dolan

The typical reaction I got was, what the hell is storytelling got to do with business? It was like, ooh, once upon a time. And people just, the amount of times people said to me, hang on a minute,

you left your corporate job, well-paid job, to teach people storytelling. Like, are you mad? And so, yes, that was very much the general reaction back then. When I was still at NAB and I sort of had this feeling,

you know, I just, I was in change management roles, right? So, you know, you're going out to the business units and you're explaining why we need to change. And of course, every business unit says, no, we don't need that because we're special and blah, blah, blah. Everyone says it.

And what I found is when I shared a story, and look, it wasn't a magical silver bullet, but it sort of put people's defences down a bit and they sort of at least listened. And I would, you know, often get, well, I guess that makes sense or I never thought about it that

way. And I started to reflect that it's when I shared a story that got through. And then I actually started to notice around me that I would see people speak

on stage and go, they're brilliant presenters. And then I was thinking, the reason they're brilliant presenters is because they're sharing stories. So I sort of started to notice the great presenters were sharing stories, the brilliant leaders that I wanted to work with were sharing

stories. Like we always know great salespeople share stories and great teachers share stories. So I had this inkling that it was a skill. And then I came across this book written by Stephen Denning.

I think it was called the Organisational Guide to Storytelling. And he was an ex-World Bank. He was an ex-senior exec at the World Bank. And I just seriously read that book.

And I was thinking, I knew it. I knew it. I knew there was something in this. And the fact that he was an ex-senior executive at the world bank i'm thinking if someone in that position is writing a book on the power of storytelling then there's absolutely

something in this so um yeah so i like i said 21 years ago i thought what the hell i'm gonna give this a crack the um our kids were two and five at the time and i just seriously thought if it doesn't work out,

I'll have a couple of years home with the kids and I'll just go back and get another job.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good on you. Good on you. And it was a risk, obviously, that paid off. So here we are. Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

It was a risk. Yes. You know, it's funny. It didn't feel like a risk at the time. I'm not sure why. I think because I just had the attitude, well, I'll give it a go and if it doesn't work out you know I'm home you know a

year or two with the kids and then I'll just go back and get another job I had no no I knew I could come back and get another job so that wasn't an issue so it didn't overly feel like a risk but you know I mean it was in hindsight we

we decided me my husband collectively decided to reduce our income by 60% because I was you know earning more money than and that the so but yeah that

was a joint decision.

Lucy Bolan

So when I look at someone yourself, I mean, I see you as a bit of the guru when it comes to all things stories. So, I mean, is this something naturally that you've been really good at that you've, I guess, identified yourself with and gone, you know what,

as you said earlier, okay, there's something in this and off I go? Or have you yourself had to also, like, you know, really, I guess, hone in on your own craft and keep developing that as well.

Gabrielle Dolan

A bit of both. My mates that I went to school with and I still keep in contact with, so they've known me since I was 12. And, you know, they just think it's so appropriate that

I'm doing what I do because they would say, you were the one that was always telling the funny stories at the pub. But it was like one of my oldest mates, we lived together for a while and something would happen during

the day at home and I would just start chuckling to myself. And she goes, you were going to retell this story at the pub tonight and it's going to be so much more funnier than what had actually happened. I go, yeah, I know.

Because I'm kind of, so there was a bit of that. But the reality is we're all storytellers. We actually all tell stories. And some people are absolutely better at telling stories than others, just naturally, like just naturally.

You know, some people are naturally better at tennis than others. Okay. So that's a given, but everyone can get better at it. So yes, I have over the last 21 years gone through, figured out why, what works and what

doesn't work. And sometimes when you tell a joke and you could tell a joke and everyone laughs and you can tell a joke, you know, to the different people next week this and you think it's the same way but no one laughs and and there'll be elements that you forgot to say or

didn't say or was in the delivery and so it's the same with the story there's there's things that you i can i can hear a story and people go i don't know why it didn't work and i'll go this is why it

didn't work and so it's teaching people the process that hopefully a repeatable framework that will increase their chances of their stories landing and being effective.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. And on that, why are stories so effective? Like, you know, why is it that when we listen to a story, and I mean, you've got a job doing this, why is it so important?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So there's a whole heap of research done by neuroscientists, very smart people, that say that when our brains hear a story, it taps into emotion and the brain processes emotion different to logic in two

different ways. So first of all, we actually make decisions based on emotion and business need to realise this because business just goes, oh, we're not making decisions based on emotion.

It's on logic and blah, blah, blah. We always make decisions based on emotion. It's like, you know, whether it's buying the latest iPhone or a new pair of shoes or a house or buying or working for a company or working for you or, you know, in a job interview, deciding.

People are walking out going, I reckon, I think we could really work with them. I think they'd be a really great fit. And that's their emotional decisions. Now, yes, it needs to logically make sense. So you still, I'm not saying you don't have the logic,

you'd still need the logic there, but we're human beings and all human beings make decisions based on emotion. So a story taps into emotion and what else, what the brain also does with emotion,

it stores it in the long-term part of our brain. So if a story, a well-told story, not all stories, if it taps into emotion, now I'm not saying emotional, like it's going to be really sad or anything, but it taps into emotion and therefore you remember the stories. So,

and look, when I speak to people, we sort of know this. Like you go, yeah, like people go, I remember I saw this great presenter and he told a story and they can retell me the story and I go how long ago was

this and I go that would have been over 10 years ago and I go what else what else can you remember from that presentation nothing nothing except the story so that's why stories are really powerful

on several things it helps people understand the message um it helps people remember the message because they've remembered the story and ultimately they can retell the story without losing its meaning.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. So I was reading the, cue the book, the fabulous story intelligence here last night and I found it so interesting because as we know, we're in a world of AI now.

And I think something that you mentioned in that book, which I really resonated with was we are in a world of distrust now. Absolutely. Where naturally there's so many of us out there that see so much content on LinkedIn

or we hear stories and we go, yeah, no, that didn't really happen. Or LinkedIn or, you know, AI wrote that. So, you know, the book that you recently wrote, I mean, God, it's just so

interesting. And I loved all these individual different stories in there as well. And the exercise that you did around, you know, did AI write it or did I? I think what you did i could tell i won't spoil it but anyway so i mean and i love the analogy

as well when you said batman and robin it's kind of like you know your story batman and then robin see it as ai so i guess my question is you know if you were speaking to say marketers because i mean

there's going to be marketers listening to this how can they best would you say use storytelling when they say it's a CMO when they're in their role they're often talking generally about a brand and promoting that brand

story how best can they perhaps use it more so internally even when they're

Gabrielle Dolan

working with their own team yeah so the vast majority of the work I do Lucy is I go into organizations and how and teach the leaders how to tell stories. And it's normally around the values or the brand or the culture,

but you know, it's whatever you call it. It's like, this is what we value. These are the behaviors we expect. This is what we want to be known for. And my focus is on personal stories. So they didn't happen at work because I think they're the most powerful and they're the most,

but they're the most underutilized. So a lot of the times when companies talk about their values, they talk about, you know, work-related stories. So if they, you know, if one of their values is exceptional customer service, they'll share stories of their employees delivering great

customer service, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And I call them professional stories, but you can add on the public story. So going back to your question, if you've got a CMO

or CEO or any senior exec, and they want to talk, they're either talking internally to their people, as in this is the behaviour we want, this is the culture we want, this is, you know, the values we value.

Or even if it's external people, like you're trying to recruit people. And like, seriously, I've been sharing these stories in a job interview, for example, because as we know, or as you would know, you know, it's you're selling the job as much as the people are trying to want the job.

They're having a decision on whether they work for you as well and it's an emotional decision remember that so I would say to any any executive that's trying to communicate values is first of all list the values and it doesn't necessarily need to be

only the company values it could be your own values as well and what people tend to do initially is go, oh, we value integrity. We value transparency. We value collaboration.

And it's just words, right? Words, words, words, words. And you're like, seriously, you throw a blanket over every corporate organizational values and 95% of them are

exactly the same, just worded differently. So that's where we start. But then I go, well, what does that mean to you? So you've just said we value collaboration i would go well what does that mean to you and

and i say to people what does it mean to you personally because the straight away they go well you know that the team works towards a you know shared goal blah blah blah again like what

does that mean so i keep asking them personally and you would be surprised how many senior execs have i say what does it mean to you personally? And they'll have a think about it and they'll say something.

And I go, what else does it mean to you personally? And they'll go, ooh, good point. You've really, yeah, you've put me on the spot here. I haven't thought about it before. So the real challenge, before we even get to the story,

is what does collaboration really mean to you personally? And ask yourself. And then you'll drill down and instead of saying things like working as a team, there'll be elements like seeking everyone's feedback or at least listening to

people's feedback or concerns about whatever it is, right? And then we find a story. And then, so my advice is you find a personal story and the really powerful ones. Let's just say there's an

example about it's actually seeking and listening to people's feedback is the messy. I would say, think of a personal story as it didn't happen at work when you

didn't do that. A lot of people go, well, why would I share a story when I didn't do it? Because sharing stories about when you didn't do it, and it could be like, you know, you're on holidays with friends and someone suggested, oh, it wouldn't go that way. And

you go, no, no, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And then you've gone that way and, you know, crap happened, right? It can be as simple as that. It doesn't have to be these big major stories. And then when you're sharing the story, of course,

you're getting across the fact that you've either regretted that decision or you've learned a really valuable lesson and things like that, which now means that value is really important to you.

I know that value is really important to you.

Lucy Bolan

I think, and I find as well myself, because, I mean, I personally, you know, practice this myself, and I find it's the bridge isn't it it's the leap between the personal story and then getting it across to exactly what it means from a business perspective

the commercials and I think as well if you get that right if you nail it then it's going to really pack a punch and resonate yeah I've also personally listened to a lot of I'm gonna my

friends are gonna hate this but I've got friends I'm still in the go oh my gosh this happened the other day oh it was hilarious and they'll be on for 30 minutes about this bloody story and you're like my god like it can't be that funny and actually you've lost me

you lost me at 10 minutes actually so there's a bit of an art with it isn't there and i'm sure part of what you're doing is obviously getting people to tailor how to structure the story yeah

Gabrielle Dolan

the one of a common mistake is that people their stories just go way too long. So way too long. My advice is your story should be roughly around about 60 to 90 seconds. You can tell some brilliant stories in 30 seconds,

but if your stories are going two minutes or longer, they're just too long. And there's a real discipline in getting your story succinct. And part of the process I teach is if you're really clear on that single message, really clear on the single message, then that

will determine what information you put in your story and what, and most importantly, what, what you leave out. Wow. And sometimes people get full, you know, they, they telling the story and

everyone's listening. So they start adding more and they start adding more. And it was just like, just, you know, and I think the more senior people get, the more inclined to do this so it's um you know there's the saying i often say you didn't

get any funnier you just got more senior it's the same with your stories your stories didn't get any more engaging you just got more senior and people are politely nodding when they're really thinking

Lucy Bolan

get to the point so true so true so in this market i mean obviously as a recruiter i mean I do a lot of work with marketers who are, I mean, as we know, there's a lot of people out there looking for work right now, unfortunately.

And it's a really competitive story. And, you know, I see a lot of CVs where we've got fantastic key achievements. I mean, the CVs look great. But, and I said this to so many people all the time, know your narrative, know how to, you know, tell your story, how to, you know, articulate yourself.

But there's a lot that don't. And I don't know if that comes down to confidence, but how can, how can these people listening, how can they use storytelling to better

themselves, especially in an interview as well? Because I'm sure this would be very helpful.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, job interviews are the perfect opportunity to share stories. Like, you know, often, you know, when I work with people and like, I'm going, I share a story in a presentation with your team and they go what what you just start your story

and it's like well yes you do but you clear on the message job interviews are the perfect perfect opportunity because you know um i assume people still follow the bi process do they the

behavioral event you know tell us a time when yeah the style technique situation yeah yeah so what i what i would say if i was going advising people going for a job interview. The point is you don't want to use the job interview

to regurgitate your entire CV or resume. You've got the job interview. So I think the fact that you've got a job interview, you're ticking quite a few of the technical boxes or the skill or the

experience boxes. I would go and be very clear on what values that the company, look at the company values and what they value. I think have a good idea of what values or behaviors would be

expected in the role as well. And then I would go through the process of having both personal story and a professional story to communicate them. So again, if, you know, one of the values they

talk about is collaboration, I would have a professional story of when you've done that and potentially a personal story. Now you may not not you may not share both but i would be prepared

for that because they could sort of go well why is collaboration important to you now that's a perfect time to go and share their personal story personal stories are really valuable to if you're

lacking a little bit of industry experience so you might not have or you're quite young so you know, if this is your first or second job, you're not going to have as many work-related stories as, you know, someone in their 40s or 50s.

But you've probably got these amazing experiences, you know, when you're in, you know, Girl Guides or Scouts or, you know, going on a school excursion.

And you did. So you think about those lateral stories that still demonstrate, they still demonstrate collaboration or they still demonstrate risk making and you're sharing the personal stories.

You could, you know what, you can even share stories about your parents or your growing up that show that this, this is part of you. This is, you were raised with this value because your parents instilled it in you.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, it's so true. And it's really funny. We're talking about this. So I, I've got my parents visiting at the moment from the UK, which is fun, fun and games. And I was chatting

to my dad actually last night and I said, oh, I'm interviewing, you know, Gabrielle. And he, you know, he's like, who's Gabrielle? Anyway, we went through the whole background, et cetera, storytelling. And he said, it's really funny, you know, he said, because he used to be quite

senior at British Airways Space and he was there for about 40 odd years. And he got his last job, which was overseeing, I think, customer service. Because he mentioned in that job interview that when he was younger,

he saw how important customer service was, working in his dad's DIY shop, where they were measuring nails and scales and all that kind of stuff.

And the HR director actually said to him afterwards, oh, you got that job because we love that story and how much customer service and how much you valued that as a child. And I said, well, there you go. You know, this is why it's so important.

And I think you're right. You're so right. It makes it, you know, when people tell me stories that are articulate, they get to the point, you know, they resonate with exactly what we're talking about.

You know, it really packs a punch. You know, it's so important.

Gabrielle Dolan

That's a great example. So it's a great example because what a story does is, I want to go back aristotle's model of influence where he said the three most important things when you're trying to influence people and you look at a job interview that is

the ultimate you're trying to influence people to hire you um you need logos ethos and pathos which which is logic personal credibility and emotional connection and what we tend to do with a cb or

is we go on logic oh i've done this before, these are the results. And that the approach with the STAR technique, where this was the situation, this is the task, and this is the result.

And that's all very logical, right? So I'm not saying you don't need that, it's logical. But the real, the most important thing when it comes to logic, personal credibility, or emotional connection, is credibility and emotional connection.

So what the story has done, your dad's story about measuring nails when he was a kid working in his dad's factory, it's created that emotional connection. We spoke about before, a good story taps into emotion, so it's already done the emotional

connection. What it's given him is credibility. Now it's not credibility in everything, but it's credibility in the message of he takes customer service serious.

So he's talking about that and it's through the story that builds credibility. It's only through the story that builds credibility. Because every single person going for that job interview, if they knew customer service was a big thing, they would all go,

customer service is really important to me. I'm really behind. I think the customers, and they would say it all, but sharing the story of him working in his dad's factory gives him credibility

that words alone will not do.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like a reference there and then in itself, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

I guess part of this podcast as well, I mean, I try and, you know, if anything, speak to people like yourself or the leaders, et cetera, to educate, you know, the next generation of marketers coming up on how to,

I guess, if they want to become a leader, how to better themselves, you know. One thing that does concern me and that I do see a lot is there's and I'm going to say maybe it's the COVID era to a degree you know there's this generation coming through

that unfortunately I find perhaps aren't as confident articulating or talking about who they are or what they're doing is there any advice for those guys that you can tap into like I mean

what would you say to these you know these, these younger generation coming through, like how they can better start to at least, you know, listen and take note of what you're talking about when it comes to storytelling?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So I think you're right. Like, like some people don't like selling themselves.

Lucy Bolan

They don't.

Gabrielle Dolan

It's like people often go to me, oh, I'd like to tell a story, but I don't want to brag. And I go, okay, well, don't brag. Like we don't, we don't want to be the bragger. well, don't brag. Like we don't want to be the bragger, but sharing stories about what you learned from that, the lesson I learned from that was the importance of whatever. That's a really

good way to share a story because it's not feeling like it's bragging. I love the advice from our respective mate, Jack Phillips. And she sort of said, when people go, well, what are your strengths?

What are you good at? And literally saying, well, people have told me that i'm very good at this so that it becomes like oh i'm good at this well well this is what people say about me people told me i'm good

so i love that technique i know i know that's not a story but you could do something like that and back it up with the story so people have told me that i'm you know very good at collaborating and making decisions, really being decided with decisions.

Okay, so share a story that does that. And again, they can be really powerful. And the stories can be both the personal stories and all the professional stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well, especially when I've got clients within the world of HR, you know, chief people officers that are looking at, you know, we talk about now how actual employees are the brand advocates now, I mean you're probably going well

we knew that from way back when this is you know that they're the storytellers within the business but then you go on these websites and it's about us or it's our story and it's not their story at all because they're using a load of

jargon like we are innovative and we are collaborative and it's all blah blah blah so I mean what would you advise me to these people like I mean you know I mean I'm thinking if I was in a HR director role, I'd be going, right, let's get storytelling people.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, a couple of things I would say to those. First of all, as we've spoken about, storytelling is an absolute skill, right? It's a skill. And so if you're in, you know, whether you're a CEO or chief people officer or whatever,

and you're going, okay, we want our people to be better at storytelling, you've got to teach them how to do it. And I know I might be biased because this is my job, but you can't just go, oh, start telling stories and not teach them how to do it because I've seen that done and it's

absolutely setting them up for failure. And then, and then the same, you know, senior exec will go, oh, we tried storytelling. It was like, yeah, you tried storytelling without learning how to do it

properly, which means you were always going to fail. So it's an absolute skill. You might have seen some articles come out the last six months or so

from the Wall Street Journal about biggest increase in job titles has got storyteller in the title. They did all this research on LinkedIn. Now, part of me goes, I told you so.

I knew storytelling was a skill. But part of me is really concerned that they're thinking storytelling, there's now a storytelling department.

And you know what it is, it's going to be the marketers. The marketers are now saying they're chief storytelling officers. My concern is that we almost outsource it because like you said, the best brand ambassadors

any organisation has is their employees. A hundred percent. You know, whether they're the front, you know, whether they're the leaders sharing stories internally or whether they're the

sales people sharing stories externally to clients or potential clients or they're the customer facing people right it's how they share your employees are the best brand ambassadors so i i see the companies that implement storytelling really well yes they train their leaders and they

train their senior leaders and they train the marketers and comms people but they train the marketers and comms people, but they train other people as well within the organization because learning how to tell, and you know what, learning how to tell a story well

is an absolute career skill. So I always say like, why wouldn't you just give, invest your employees and give them that skill? This is a skill that is going to benefit for them for the rest of their and even in their personal life as well it's like invest in them and don't just

look that the marketing department is gonna come up with stories then other people share and that and that's when exactly right Lucy you're listening them and yeah oh my god could you put any more jargon into that and you know what

most of the time it's not a story it's like and I see that all the time on websites it's our story or our stories. And I get in and have a look and I go, none of them were stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

You know, there may be case studies or they're just not stories.

Lucy Bolan

No, no, exactly. Yeah, I've seen it myself actually a lot. And I think it's since our last chat, you know, I've become a lot more wiser to it as well. Those people out there that, you know, they've been doing this,

but they've got the top three stories and they keep regurgitating the good old top three stories on that conveyor belt. Off they pop. Because that can be hard trying to constantly come up with new ones, you know,

like that are still going to have the same impact.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, it can be. And, you know, I'm going to answer this two ways. If you're a leader and you know you've got a story and it's almost become part of your signature story,

you would use it all the time. Now, the problem is when it gets the same audience, hears it again and again and again, everyone's going, oh, my God, if I hear this story one more time. But, you know, there's, I mean, and I can give you an example too

of a leader that shared a great signature story and she shares it all the time. And a lot of people have, in fact, I might give it to you because I haven't given an example. and this will talk about some of the things were spoken about how

you can communicate values that give you credibility so I worked you know was organizing or working with an organization that you know they wanted

to teach their leaders how to communicate the values through stories so great winning her name was Anne and she said one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of their company values so went through that

process what does it mean what does it mean what does it mean maybe really think about it and she she said what it really means to me is doing the right thing all the time and not just when it suits us so the story she shared and I

shared the story and then we might just unpack why it works is um in the early 60s my dad was a professional swimmer and he reached the point in his career that he actually tried out for

the national swim team. And on the day of the meet, he was doing his race and he got to the end and did the tumble turn and he misjudged and he missed the wall. Now this was in the early 60s. So there was no census back then. There was judges, but with all that splashing and kicking, he knew

they wouldn't know if he touched the wall or not. So he had to make a split second decision. Does he go back and touch the wall or does he just keep swimming? Now he decided to go back and touch the wall. Now, you don't really recover from a race when you do that.

And Dad didn't. He never won. There was probably a whole lot of other reasons, but he never made the national swim team. And growing up as a kid, I would often hear Dad share that story and people would ask him, have you ever regretted going back and touching the wall?

And he'd always say, I've never regretted that because if I didn't go back and touch the wall, I'd have to spend the rest of my life knowing I did the wrong thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value, doing the right thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value doing the

right thing. It is only a matter of time before we come across our own go back and touch the wall moment. And I invite you to consider what my dad would do. Now, I want to put it there for,

go back to a couple of things. When Anne shares, every time someone comes and works for Anne, she shares that story. So it's sort of part of her personal

induction program because she has told me, I know the impact it has. I know the heavy lifting it does. She said that story demonstrates to them my leadership style. So she's not a, she's not a

win at all cost leader. She is, if we do the right thing and still don't achieve the outcome, I'll have your back. So she just shares that story every single time she's been on podcast and shared the story she's been on

panels around leadership and shares the story it's become part of her signature story we talked about you know logic uh credibility and connection so again can you see let's just say you were in a job

interview and she was interviewing you and you were talking about you know integrity and doing the right thing and she could say you all know that that's really important to us blah blah blah words but by

sharing the story I now truly believe and trust that she she delivers on that that that is her leadership but it's only through the story I get credibility now of course you do have to deliver

on that that's the other thing you've got to deliver on that but yeah that's a customer story that she has shared like this was 12 years ago I did the work with her and she still shares it in the last time I caught up with her was probably about this time last year okay

I said are you still sharing your dad's story and she went absolutely and then she said her dad had passed away like a three months prior and she had to do the eulogy and she shared that story so I was like oh that's very so lovely so so

if you've got a story that works, keep sharing it, but you also want to be on the lookout for other stories and that could potentially replace something like that or you might be just sharing a story about something else

and you need multiple ways, multiple stories. But part of what I do, Lucy, is once I help people realise it's not the bigger heart moments, it's not the big you know it's not the bigger heart moments it's not the climbing mount ever

it's not the recovering from cancer type stories it's just the little day-to-day ones once people realize that they will something will happen and they'll go oh oh that's a great story about making

assumptions or that's a great story around collaboration and they just start to use those

Lucy Bolan

stories yeah i love it and that story in particular i think really does hone in on you know I think coming down to someone's authentic you know their traits very much trusted um and and and you know to to your point you know when she's telling that

story she's saying you're like you can make mistakes but as long as you're honest and you know it's that that honesty and I'm just saying you know I'd be going well if I won that I would have won that race and I hadn't touched the wall and so actually I feel like a fraud, you know, so I'd rather do that.

It's doing the right thing, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

And the other reason why that story works too is we spoke about this. It's a story about her dad. And when she tells it, what you see in her is pride. Like she's really proud of her dad. And so you know she was raised this way.

This is not just a company value she's towing the line to. You truly believe that this is important to her.

Lucy Bolan

I love it. So my next question, we're going to wrap things up but what is next for ral dolan i mean how many books have you done how eight is this going to be the

Gabrielle Dolan

last book well i said the last book was going to be the last book on storytelling but um you know i just felt comp well i felt compelled to write this one because people kept asking will story

will ai replace storytelling it's like God, no, it won't. And, you know, can you use AI to help with your stories? And my first response was, no, you cannot. That's cheating. That's not real.

That's not keeping it real. But anyway, yeah, you can. So what's next for me at the moment is I'm just marketing the book. I think this book, it's 20 years of my everything. And I do believe this will be my last storytelling book I write.

So I just, I think it's timely. I think it's relevant. I'm just on a mission to let as many people know about the power of storytelling and the book. So that's my focus at the moment.

On a personal level, I did turn 59 a few weeks ago, and I'm on a mission to be the fitness, healthiest, strongest I've ever been by the time I'm 60 so oh I love it yeah pumping a lot of weight good on you

Lucy Bolan

that's so good I feel like that now and I mean god it's it's kind of like mid-40s I'm like okay next year next year we'll get to it but good on you well I've been reading this and I think it's really weird honestly I think it's great and I'm really not just saying that I think for anyone

who's a leader I don't think you know it's and what I love about it I think it relates to anyone whether you're marketing or not you know anyone know, I think if you want to harness yourself, how you're going to be better even in like personal life, the barbecue conversation,

like really, you know, I think it's, it packs the punch for sure.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, well, there was even, I mean, because I do believe this is a life skill as well. I mean, there's a whole chapter in that on, you know, what if you've got to give, you know, a 21st speech or a best man speech or a eulogy, just have stories, just have stories

for them.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I've really enjoyed catching up. Thank you so much, Riel. It's been absolutely awesome. Love it. Love the energy. And honestly, I think there's going to be so much in this that people are going to go, ah, right, okay, that's how you do it. Right. The secret formula. Um, but thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Gabrielle Dolan

Thanks Lucy.

Lucy Bolan

Remember the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining

us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO. Bolan

Welcome to the CMO Chapters Podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing

executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes

of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever evolving landscape of business stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the

brand okay so i am delighted to have the fabulous gabrielle dolan on i think we're now on episode one for the cmo chapters podcast so gabrielle welcome i'm so excited to be speaking to you, Lucy. I can't wait.

Yeah, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Really excited to have you on, actually, because, I mean, I feel like I've known you for, I want to say, I don't know now, six months, maybe, I think about, on and off.

Yes, hasn't been long. No, it hasn't been too long.

Gabrielle Dolan

It feels longer than six months.

Lucy Bolan

It does. It does indeed, in a good way. I've got a lot of questions. We've got a little bit to get through because, I mean, as we know, you've obviously written a book recently on story intelligence. So I've got a

bit there that I want to sort of dive into. But before we get into it, can you please introduce

Gabrielle Dolan

yourself? Well, my name is Gabrielle Dolan, as you said in the intro. Most people call me Rel. My little sister could never pronounce my name and she'd call me Gabriel. So Rel has stuck.

But I've spent the last 21 years of my career teaching business people how to communicate more effectively through stories. So prior to that, I worked at National Australia Bank. I worked in senior leadership roles and change management roles towards the end. And it was think storytelling is something people need to learn how to do better so I thought what the hell maybe

I could be that person to teach people having never run a business before or never taught storytelling before but I had actually done a lot of designing and delivering of leadership program so I knew I could design and deliver a leadership program around storytelling and yeah, that was 21 years ago. I thought I would, you know, just see if it worked out. If it didn't work out, I'd go back and get another job in corporate.

It'd be fair to say it's worked out.

Lucy Bolan

I think it's worked out really well. I mean, you've, what, 20 years now, 21 years?

Gabrielle Dolan

It's 21 years and counting. So, yeah, I worked in corporate for 20 years. And so now I've been out. But, yeah, clearly I still work very, very closely with corporate.

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

So why do you think, why storytelling? I mean, I'm just trying to think because, I mean, from my perspective, I feel like I'm only really getting into this now, if I'm being completely honest, since I've certainly got to know you

and obviously from reading your book and, you know, following you on LinkedIn. But let's go back 20 years ago. I can imagine storytelling back then. Was that a bit of a new sort of, oh, my God, what is this?

Gabrielle Dolan

The typical reaction I got was, what the hell is storytelling got to do with business? It was like, ooh, once upon a time. And people just, the amount of times people said to me, hang on a minute,

you left your corporate job, well-paid job, to teach people storytelling. Like, are you mad? And so, yes, that was very much the general reaction back then. When I was still at NAB and I sort of had this feeling,

you know, I just, I was in change management roles, right? So, you know, you're going out to the business units and you're explaining why we need to change. And of course, every business unit says, no, we don't need that because we're special and blah, blah, blah. Everyone says it.

And what I found is when I shared a story, and look, it wasn't a magical silver bullet, but it sort of put people's defences down a bit and they sort of at least listened. And I would, you know, often get, well, I guess that makes sense or I never thought about it that

way. And I started to reflect that it's when I shared a story that got through. And then I actually started to notice around me that I would see people speak

on stage and go, they're brilliant presenters. And then I was thinking, the reason they're brilliant presenters is because they're sharing stories. So I sort of started to notice the great presenters were sharing stories, the brilliant leaders that I wanted to work with were sharing

stories. Like we always know great salespeople share stories and great teachers share stories. So I had this inkling that it was a skill. And then I came across this book written by Stephen Denning.

I think it was called the Organisational Guide to Storytelling. And he was an ex-World Bank. He was an ex-senior exec at the World Bank. And I just seriously read that book.

And I was thinking, I knew it. I knew it. I knew there was something in this. And the fact that he was an ex-senior executive at the world bank i'm thinking if someone in that position is writing a book on the power of storytelling then there's absolutely

something in this so um yeah so i like i said 21 years ago i thought what the hell i'm gonna give this a crack the um our kids were two and five at the time and i just seriously thought if it doesn't work out,

I'll have a couple of years home with the kids and I'll just go back and get another job.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good on you. Good on you. And it was a risk, obviously, that paid off. So here we are. Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

It was a risk. Yes. You know, it's funny. It didn't feel like a risk at the time. I'm not sure why. I think because I just had the attitude, well, I'll give it a go and if it doesn't work out you know I'm home you know a

year or two with the kids and then I'll just go back and get another job I had no no I knew I could come back and get another job so that wasn't an issue so it didn't overly feel like a risk but you know I mean it was in hindsight we

we decided me my husband collectively decided to reduce our income by 60% because I was you know earning more money than and that the so but yeah that

was a joint decision.

Lucy Bolan

So when I look at someone yourself, I mean, I see you as a bit of the guru when it comes to all things stories. So, I mean, is this something naturally that you've been really good at that you've, I guess, identified yourself with and gone, you know what,

as you said earlier, okay, there's something in this and off I go? Or have you yourself had to also, like, you know, really, I guess, hone in on your own craft and keep developing that as well.

Gabrielle Dolan

A bit of both. My mates that I went to school with and I still keep in contact with, so they've known me since I was 12. And, you know, they just think it's so appropriate that

I'm doing what I do because they would say, you were the one that was always telling the funny stories at the pub. But it was like one of my oldest mates, we lived together for a while and something would happen during

the day at home and I would just start chuckling to myself. And she goes, you were going to retell this story at the pub tonight and it's going to be so much more funnier than what had actually happened. I go, yeah, I know.

Because I'm kind of, so there was a bit of that. But the reality is we're all storytellers. We actually all tell stories. And some people are absolutely better at telling stories than others, just naturally, like just naturally.

You know, some people are naturally better at tennis than others. Okay. So that's a given, but everyone can get better at it. So yes, I have over the last 21 years gone through, figured out why, what works and what

doesn't work. And sometimes when you tell a joke and you could tell a joke and everyone laughs and you can tell a joke, you know, to the different people next week this and you think it's the same way but no one laughs and and there'll be elements that you forgot to say or

didn't say or was in the delivery and so it's the same with the story there's there's things that you i can i can hear a story and people go i don't know why it didn't work and i'll go this is why it

didn't work and so it's teaching people the process that hopefully a repeatable framework that will increase their chances of their stories landing and being effective.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. And on that, why are stories so effective? Like, you know, why is it that when we listen to a story, and I mean, you've got a job doing this, why is it so important?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So there's a whole heap of research done by neuroscientists, very smart people, that say that when our brains hear a story, it taps into emotion and the brain processes emotion different to logic in two

different ways. So first of all, we actually make decisions based on emotion and business need to realise this because business just goes, oh, we're not making decisions based on emotion.

It's on logic and blah, blah, blah. We always make decisions based on emotion. It's like, you know, whether it's buying the latest iPhone or a new pair of shoes or a house or buying or working for a company or working for you or, you know, in a job interview, deciding.

People are walking out going, I reckon, I think we could really work with them. I think they'd be a really great fit. And that's their emotional decisions. Now, yes, it needs to logically make sense. So you still, I'm not saying you don't have the logic,

you'd still need the logic there, but we're human beings and all human beings make decisions based on emotion. So a story taps into emotion and what else, what the brain also does with emotion,

it stores it in the long-term part of our brain. So if a story, a well-told story, not all stories, if it taps into emotion, now I'm not saying emotional, like it's going to be really sad or anything, but it taps into emotion and therefore you remember the stories. So,

and look, when I speak to people, we sort of know this. Like you go, yeah, like people go, I remember I saw this great presenter and he told a story and they can retell me the story and I go how long ago was

this and I go that would have been over 10 years ago and I go what else what else can you remember from that presentation nothing nothing except the story so that's why stories are really powerful

on several things it helps people understand the message um it helps people remember the message because they've remembered the story and ultimately they can retell the story without losing its meaning.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. So I was reading the, cue the book, the fabulous story intelligence here last night and I found it so interesting because as we know, we're in a world of AI now.

And I think something that you mentioned in that book, which I really resonated with was we are in a world of distrust now. Absolutely. Where naturally there's so many of us out there that see so much content on LinkedIn

or we hear stories and we go, yeah, no, that didn't really happen. Or LinkedIn or, you know, AI wrote that. So, you know, the book that you recently wrote, I mean, God, it's just so

interesting. And I loved all these individual different stories in there as well. And the exercise that you did around, you know, did AI write it or did I? I think what you did i could tell i won't spoil it but anyway so i mean and i love the analogy

as well when you said batman and robin it's kind of like you know your story batman and then robin see it as ai so i guess my question is you know if you were speaking to say marketers because i mean

there's going to be marketers listening to this how can they best would you say use storytelling when they say it's a CMO when they're in their role they're often talking generally about a brand and promoting that brand

story how best can they perhaps use it more so internally even when they're

Gabrielle Dolan

working with their own team yeah so the vast majority of the work I do Lucy is I go into organizations and how and teach the leaders how to tell stories. And it's normally around the values or the brand or the culture,

but you know, it's whatever you call it. It's like, this is what we value. These are the behaviors we expect. This is what we want to be known for. And my focus is on personal stories. So they didn't happen at work because I think they're the most powerful and they're the most,

but they're the most underutilized. So a lot of the times when companies talk about their values, they talk about, you know, work-related stories. So if they, you know, if one of their values is exceptional customer service, they'll share stories of their employees delivering great

customer service, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And I call them professional stories, but you can add on the public story. So going back to your question, if you've got a CMO

or CEO or any senior exec, and they want to talk, they're either talking internally to their people, as in this is the behaviour we want, this is the culture we want, this is, you know, the values we value.

Or even if it's external people, like you're trying to recruit people. And like, seriously, I've been sharing these stories in a job interview, for example, because as we know, or as you would know, you know, it's you're selling the job as much as the people are trying to want the job.

They're having a decision on whether they work for you as well and it's an emotional decision remember that so I would say to any any executive that's trying to communicate values is first of all list the values and it doesn't necessarily need to be

only the company values it could be your own values as well and what people tend to do initially is go, oh, we value integrity. We value transparency. We value collaboration.

And it's just words, right? Words, words, words, words. And you're like, seriously, you throw a blanket over every corporate organizational values and 95% of them are

exactly the same, just worded differently. So that's where we start. But then I go, well, what does that mean to you? So you've just said we value collaboration i would go well what does that mean to you and

and i say to people what does it mean to you personally because the straight away they go well you know that the team works towards a you know shared goal blah blah blah again like what

does that mean so i keep asking them personally and you would be surprised how many senior execs have i say what does it mean to you personally? And they'll have a think about it and they'll say something.

And I go, what else does it mean to you personally? And they'll go, ooh, good point. You've really, yeah, you've put me on the spot here. I haven't thought about it before. So the real challenge, before we even get to the story,

is what does collaboration really mean to you personally? And ask yourself. And then you'll drill down and instead of saying things like working as a team, there'll be elements like seeking everyone's feedback or at least listening to

people's feedback or concerns about whatever it is, right? And then we find a story. And then, so my advice is you find a personal story and the really powerful ones. Let's just say there's an

example about it's actually seeking and listening to people's feedback is the messy. I would say, think of a personal story as it didn't happen at work when you

didn't do that. A lot of people go, well, why would I share a story when I didn't do it? Because sharing stories about when you didn't do it, and it could be like, you know, you're on holidays with friends and someone suggested, oh, it wouldn't go that way. And

you go, no, no, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And then you've gone that way and, you know, crap happened, right? It can be as simple as that. It doesn't have to be these big major stories. And then when you're sharing the story, of course,

you're getting across the fact that you've either regretted that decision or you've learned a really valuable lesson and things like that, which now means that value is really important to you.

I know that value is really important to you.

Lucy Bolan

I think, and I find as well myself, because, I mean, I personally, you know, practice this myself, and I find it's the bridge isn't it it's the leap between the personal story and then getting it across to exactly what it means from a business perspective

the commercials and I think as well if you get that right if you nail it then it's going to really pack a punch and resonate yeah I've also personally listened to a lot of I'm gonna my

friends are gonna hate this but I've got friends I'm still in the go oh my gosh this happened the other day oh it was hilarious and they'll be on for 30 minutes about this bloody story and you're like my god like it can't be that funny and actually you've lost me

you lost me at 10 minutes actually so there's a bit of an art with it isn't there and i'm sure part of what you're doing is obviously getting people to tailor how to structure the story yeah

Gabrielle Dolan

the one of a common mistake is that people their stories just go way too long. So way too long. My advice is your story should be roughly around about 60 to 90 seconds. You can tell some brilliant stories in 30 seconds,

but if your stories are going two minutes or longer, they're just too long. And there's a real discipline in getting your story succinct. And part of the process I teach is if you're really clear on that single message, really clear on the single message, then that

will determine what information you put in your story and what, and most importantly, what, what you leave out. Wow. And sometimes people get full, you know, they, they telling the story and

everyone's listening. So they start adding more and they start adding more. And it was just like, just, you know, and I think the more senior people get, the more inclined to do this so it's um you know there's the saying i often say you didn't

get any funnier you just got more senior it's the same with your stories your stories didn't get any more engaging you just got more senior and people are politely nodding when they're really thinking

Lucy Bolan

get to the point so true so true so in this market i mean obviously as a recruiter i mean I do a lot of work with marketers who are, I mean, as we know, there's a lot of people out there looking for work right now, unfortunately.

And it's a really competitive story. And, you know, I see a lot of CVs where we've got fantastic key achievements. I mean, the CVs look great. But, and I said this to so many people all the time, know your narrative, know how to, you know, tell your story, how to, you know, articulate yourself.

But there's a lot that don't. And I don't know if that comes down to confidence, but how can, how can these people listening, how can they use storytelling to better

themselves, especially in an interview as well? Because I'm sure this would be very helpful.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, job interviews are the perfect opportunity to share stories. Like, you know, often, you know, when I work with people and like, I'm going, I share a story in a presentation with your team and they go what what you just start your story

and it's like well yes you do but you clear on the message job interviews are the perfect perfect opportunity because you know um i assume people still follow the bi process do they the

behavioral event you know tell us a time when yeah the style technique situation yeah yeah so what i what i would say if i was going advising people going for a job interview. The point is you don't want to use the job interview

to regurgitate your entire CV or resume. You've got the job interview. So I think the fact that you've got a job interview, you're ticking quite a few of the technical boxes or the skill or the

experience boxes. I would go and be very clear on what values that the company, look at the company values and what they value. I think have a good idea of what values or behaviors would be

expected in the role as well. And then I would go through the process of having both personal story and a professional story to communicate them. So again, if, you know, one of the values they

talk about is collaboration, I would have a professional story of when you've done that and potentially a personal story. Now you may not not you may not share both but i would be prepared

for that because they could sort of go well why is collaboration important to you now that's a perfect time to go and share their personal story personal stories are really valuable to if you're

lacking a little bit of industry experience so you might not have or you're quite young so you know, if this is your first or second job, you're not going to have as many work-related stories as, you know, someone in their 40s or 50s.

But you've probably got these amazing experiences, you know, when you're in, you know, Girl Guides or Scouts or, you know, going on a school excursion.

And you did. So you think about those lateral stories that still demonstrate, they still demonstrate collaboration or they still demonstrate risk making and you're sharing the personal stories.

You could, you know what, you can even share stories about your parents or your growing up that show that this, this is part of you. This is, you were raised with this value because your parents instilled it in you.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, it's so true. And it's really funny. We're talking about this. So I, I've got my parents visiting at the moment from the UK, which is fun, fun and games. And I was chatting

to my dad actually last night and I said, oh, I'm interviewing, you know, Gabrielle. And he, you know, he's like, who's Gabrielle? Anyway, we went through the whole background, et cetera, storytelling. And he said, it's really funny, you know, he said, because he used to be quite

senior at British Airways Space and he was there for about 40 odd years. And he got his last job, which was overseeing, I think, customer service. Because he mentioned in that job interview that when he was younger,

he saw how important customer service was, working in his dad's DIY shop, where they were measuring nails and scales and all that kind of stuff.

And the HR director actually said to him afterwards, oh, you got that job because we love that story and how much customer service and how much you valued that as a child. And I said, well, there you go. You know, this is why it's so important.

And I think you're right. You're so right. It makes it, you know, when people tell me stories that are articulate, they get to the point, you know, they resonate with exactly what we're talking about.

You know, it really packs a punch. You know, it's so important.

Gabrielle Dolan

That's a great example. So it's a great example because what a story does is, I want to go back aristotle's model of influence where he said the three most important things when you're trying to influence people and you look at a job interview that is

the ultimate you're trying to influence people to hire you um you need logos ethos and pathos which which is logic personal credibility and emotional connection and what we tend to do with a cb or

is we go on logic oh i've done this before, these are the results. And that the approach with the STAR technique, where this was the situation, this is the task, and this is the result.

And that's all very logical, right? So I'm not saying you don't need that, it's logical. But the real, the most important thing when it comes to logic, personal credibility, or emotional connection, is credibility and emotional connection.

So what the story has done, your dad's story about measuring nails when he was a kid working in his dad's factory, it's created that emotional connection. We spoke about before, a good story taps into emotion, so it's already done the emotional

connection. What it's given him is credibility. Now it's not credibility in everything, but it's credibility in the message of he takes customer service serious.

So he's talking about that and it's through the story that builds credibility. It's only through the story that builds credibility. Because every single person going for that job interview, if they knew customer service was a big thing, they would all go,

customer service is really important to me. I'm really behind. I think the customers, and they would say it all, but sharing the story of him working in his dad's factory gives him credibility

that words alone will not do.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like a reference there and then in itself, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan

I guess part of this podcast as well, I mean, I try and, you know, if anything, speak to people like yourself or the leaders, et cetera, to educate, you know, the next generation of marketers coming up on how to,

I guess, if they want to become a leader, how to better themselves, you know. One thing that does concern me and that I do see a lot is there's and I'm going to say maybe it's the COVID era to a degree you know there's this generation coming through

that unfortunately I find perhaps aren't as confident articulating or talking about who they are or what they're doing is there any advice for those guys that you can tap into like I mean

what would you say to these you know these, these younger generation coming through, like how they can better start to at least, you know, listen and take note of what you're talking about when it comes to storytelling?

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah. So I think you're right. Like, like some people don't like selling themselves.

Lucy Bolan

They don't.

Gabrielle Dolan

It's like people often go to me, oh, I'd like to tell a story, but I don't want to brag. And I go, okay, well, don't brag. Like we don't, we don't want to be the bragger. well, don't brag. Like we don't want to be the bragger, but sharing stories about what you learned from that, the lesson I learned from that was the importance of whatever. That's a really

good way to share a story because it's not feeling like it's bragging. I love the advice from our respective mate, Jack Phillips. And she sort of said, when people go, well, what are your strengths?

What are you good at? And literally saying, well, people have told me that i'm very good at this so that it becomes like oh i'm good at this well well this is what people say about me people told me i'm good

so i love that technique i know i know that's not a story but you could do something like that and back it up with the story so people have told me that i'm you know very good at collaborating and making decisions, really being decided with decisions.

Okay, so share a story that does that. And again, they can be really powerful. And the stories can be both the personal stories and all the professional stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well, especially when I've got clients within the world of HR, you know, chief people officers that are looking at, you know, we talk about now how actual employees are the brand advocates now, I mean you're probably going well

we knew that from way back when this is you know that they're the storytellers within the business but then you go on these websites and it's about us or it's our story and it's not their story at all because they're using a load of

jargon like we are innovative and we are collaborative and it's all blah blah blah so I mean what would you advise me to these people like I mean you know I mean I'm thinking if I was in a HR director role, I'd be going, right, let's get storytelling people.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, a couple of things I would say to those. First of all, as we've spoken about, storytelling is an absolute skill, right? It's a skill. And so if you're in, you know, whether you're a CEO or chief people officer or whatever,

and you're going, okay, we want our people to be better at storytelling, you've got to teach them how to do it. And I know I might be biased because this is my job, but you can't just go, oh, start telling stories and not teach them how to do it because I've seen that done and it's

absolutely setting them up for failure. And then, and then the same, you know, senior exec will go, oh, we tried storytelling. It was like, yeah, you tried storytelling without learning how to do it

properly, which means you were always going to fail. So it's an absolute skill. You might have seen some articles come out the last six months or so

from the Wall Street Journal about biggest increase in job titles has got storyteller in the title. They did all this research on LinkedIn. Now, part of me goes, I told you so.

I knew storytelling was a skill. But part of me is really concerned that they're thinking storytelling, there's now a storytelling department.

And you know what it is, it's going to be the marketers. The marketers are now saying they're chief storytelling officers. My concern is that we almost outsource it because like you said, the best brand ambassadors

any organisation has is their employees. A hundred percent. You know, whether they're the front, you know, whether they're the leaders sharing stories internally or whether they're the

sales people sharing stories externally to clients or potential clients or they're the customer facing people right it's how they share your employees are the best brand ambassadors so i i see the companies that implement storytelling really well yes they train their leaders and they

train their senior leaders and they train the marketers and comms people but they train the marketers and comms people, but they train other people as well within the organization because learning how to tell, and you know what, learning how to tell a story well

is an absolute career skill. So I always say like, why wouldn't you just give, invest your employees and give them that skill? This is a skill that is going to benefit for them for the rest of their and even in their personal life as well it's like invest in them and don't just

look that the marketing department is gonna come up with stories then other people share and that and that's when exactly right Lucy you're listening them and yeah oh my god could you put any more jargon into that and you know what

most of the time it's not a story it's like and I see that all the time on websites it's our story or our stories. And I get in and have a look and I go, none of them were stories.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah.

Gabrielle Dolan

You know, there may be case studies or they're just not stories.

Lucy Bolan

No, no, exactly. Yeah, I've seen it myself actually a lot. And I think it's since our last chat, you know, I've become a lot more wiser to it as well. Those people out there that, you know, they've been doing this,

but they've got the top three stories and they keep regurgitating the good old top three stories on that conveyor belt. Off they pop. Because that can be hard trying to constantly come up with new ones, you know,

like that are still going to have the same impact.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, it can be. And, you know, I'm going to answer this two ways. If you're a leader and you know you've got a story and it's almost become part of your signature story,

you would use it all the time. Now, the problem is when it gets the same audience, hears it again and again and again, everyone's going, oh, my God, if I hear this story one more time. But, you know, there's, I mean, and I can give you an example too

of a leader that shared a great signature story and she shares it all the time. And a lot of people have, in fact, I might give it to you because I haven't given an example. and this will talk about some of the things were spoken about how

you can communicate values that give you credibility so I worked you know was organizing or working with an organization that you know they wanted

to teach their leaders how to communicate the values through stories so great winning her name was Anne and she said one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of the one of the values she was trying to communicate was doing the right thing so that was one of their company values so went through that

process what does it mean what does it mean what does it mean maybe really think about it and she she said what it really means to me is doing the right thing all the time and not just when it suits us so the story she shared and I

shared the story and then we might just unpack why it works is um in the early 60s my dad was a professional swimmer and he reached the point in his career that he actually tried out for

the national swim team. And on the day of the meet, he was doing his race and he got to the end and did the tumble turn and he misjudged and he missed the wall. Now this was in the early 60s. So there was no census back then. There was judges, but with all that splashing and kicking, he knew

they wouldn't know if he touched the wall or not. So he had to make a split second decision. Does he go back and touch the wall or does he just keep swimming? Now he decided to go back and touch the wall. Now, you don't really recover from a race when you do that.

And Dad didn't. He never won. There was probably a whole lot of other reasons, but he never made the national swim team. And growing up as a kid, I would often hear Dad share that story and people would ask him, have you ever regretted going back and touching the wall?

And he'd always say, I've never regretted that because if I didn't go back and touch the wall, I'd have to spend the rest of my life knowing I did the wrong thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value, doing the right thing. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of our value doing the

right thing. It is only a matter of time before we come across our own go back and touch the wall moment. And I invite you to consider what my dad would do. Now, I want to put it there for,

go back to a couple of things. When Anne shares, every time someone comes and works for Anne, she shares that story. So it's sort of part of her personal

induction program because she has told me, I know the impact it has. I know the heavy lifting it does. She said that story demonstrates to them my leadership style. So she's not a, she's not a

win at all cost leader. She is, if we do the right thing and still don't achieve the outcome, I'll have your back. So she just shares that story every single time she's been on podcast and shared the story she's been on

panels around leadership and shares the story it's become part of her signature story we talked about you know logic uh credibility and connection so again can you see let's just say you were in a job

interview and she was interviewing you and you were talking about you know integrity and doing the right thing and she could say you all know that that's really important to us blah blah blah words but by

sharing the story I now truly believe and trust that she she delivers on that that that is her leadership but it's only through the story I get credibility now of course you do have to deliver

on that that's the other thing you've got to deliver on that but yeah that's a customer story that she has shared like this was 12 years ago I did the work with her and she still shares it in the last time I caught up with her was probably about this time last year okay

I said are you still sharing your dad's story and she went absolutely and then she said her dad had passed away like a three months prior and she had to do the eulogy and she shared that story so I was like oh that's very so lovely so so

if you've got a story that works, keep sharing it, but you also want to be on the lookout for other stories and that could potentially replace something like that or you might be just sharing a story about something else

and you need multiple ways, multiple stories. But part of what I do, Lucy, is once I help people realise it's not the bigger heart moments, it's not the big you know it's not the bigger heart moments it's not the climbing mount ever

it's not the recovering from cancer type stories it's just the little day-to-day ones once people realize that they will something will happen and they'll go oh oh that's a great story about making

assumptions or that's a great story around collaboration and they just start to use those

Lucy Bolan

stories yeah i love it and that story in particular i think really does hone in on you know I think coming down to someone's authentic you know their traits very much trusted um and and and you know to to your point you know when she's telling that

story she's saying you're like you can make mistakes but as long as you're honest and you know it's that that honesty and I'm just saying you know I'd be going well if I won that I would have won that race and I hadn't touched the wall and so actually I feel like a fraud, you know, so I'd rather do that.

It's doing the right thing, isn't it?

Gabrielle Dolan

And the other reason why that story works too is we spoke about this. It's a story about her dad. And when she tells it, what you see in her is pride. Like she's really proud of her dad. And so you know she was raised this way.

This is not just a company value she's towing the line to. You truly believe that this is important to her.

Lucy Bolan

I love it. So my next question, we're going to wrap things up but what is next for ral dolan i mean how many books have you done how eight is this going to be the

Gabrielle Dolan

last book well i said the last book was going to be the last book on storytelling but um you know i just felt comp well i felt compelled to write this one because people kept asking will story

will ai replace storytelling it's like God, no, it won't. And, you know, can you use AI to help with your stories? And my first response was, no, you cannot. That's cheating. That's not real.

That's not keeping it real. But anyway, yeah, you can. So what's next for me at the moment is I'm just marketing the book. I think this book, it's 20 years of my everything. And I do believe this will be my last storytelling book I write.

So I just, I think it's timely. I think it's relevant. I'm just on a mission to let as many people know about the power of storytelling and the book. So that's my focus at the moment.

On a personal level, I did turn 59 a few weeks ago, and I'm on a mission to be the fitness, healthiest, strongest I've ever been by the time I'm 60 so oh I love it yeah pumping a lot of weight good on you

Lucy Bolan

that's so good I feel like that now and I mean god it's it's kind of like mid-40s I'm like okay next year next year we'll get to it but good on you well I've been reading this and I think it's really weird honestly I think it's great and I'm really not just saying that I think for anyone

who's a leader I don't think you know it's and what I love about it I think it relates to anyone whether you're marketing or not you know anyone know, I think if you want to harness yourself, how you're going to be better even in like personal life, the barbecue conversation,

like really, you know, I think it's, it packs the punch for sure.

Gabrielle Dolan

Yeah, well, there was even, I mean, because I do believe this is a life skill as well. I mean, there's a whole chapter in that on, you know, what if you've got to give, you know, a 21st speech or a best man speech or a eulogy, just have stories, just have stories

for them.

Lucy Bolan

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I've really enjoyed catching up. Thank you so much, Riel. It's been absolutely awesome. Love it. Love the energy. And honestly, I think there's going to be so much in this that people are going to go, ah, right, okay, that's how you do it. Right. The secret formula. Um, but thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Gabrielle Dolan

Thanks Lucy.

Lucy Bolan

Remember the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining

us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END