Lucy Bolan: Welcome to season two of the CMO chapters podcast this year. I'm super excited, super thrilled to announce that we have an absolute whole fabulous host of CMOs, market leaders, experts within their field. Who've been very, very generous with that time to share some candid. pretty heartfelt, honest conversations around some personal career journeys that they've experienced.

Lucy Bolan: Also some lessons that they've learned along the way. This season, it's going to really be your action packed one stop shop toolbox for anything to do with career growth, professional development, um, leadership progression, and also importantly, what it really takes nowadays as a marketer to stand out in what is.

Lucy Bolan: as we know, a very competitive market. It's absolutely got all sorts for everybody. And I really hope you enjoy.

Lucy Bolan: Welcome to the CMO chapter podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we. Explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love, whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of the CMO.

Lucy Bolan: This podcast is your backstage past to discovering what it's like to really lead and. In the ever evolving landscape of business, stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand.

Jac Phillips: Welcome. Thank you, Lucy. It is an absolute delight, honor, and privilege to be here. 

Lucy Bolan: Oh, thank you. Thank you. So I've been, it sounds a little bit stalkerish here, but I've been sort of a bit of a fan of Jack's for quite a while. I've been following Jack on, on LinkedIn and yeah, certainly through the fabulous podcast.

Lucy Bolan: But I really wanted to get you on the show today, really Really tap into a bit more detail around what you've been, what you've done, your background, um, and really discuss in more detail, um, I guess advice and tips you've got for those aspiring leaders out there that are looking to potentially go down the CMO path.

Lucy Bolan: Before we get to it, Jack, please feel free to introduce yourself. 

Jac Phillips: Oh, thank you, Lucy. Um, I'm a bit of a fan of yours too. I see all the, the great things that you do on LinkedIn, uh, and the fact that you've got a recruitment business, uh, and are trying to find talent and put talent in great roles, I think is a, an awesome purpose.

Jac Phillips: So, um, I think that, you know, there's some mutual admiration. Yeah, thank you. Who is she? Well, um, that's a very good question. She's still trying to figure that out herself. Um, I have been, I guess, uh, on a, an awesome journey. Um, I've had a career for about 35 years. Uh, that career kicked off in radio in a small town in New Zealand, uh, at school.

Jac Phillips: told off for talking. Uh, so I went and got paid for it instead because I was good at it. Uh, and so I went, went and joined a, a commercial, uh, radio station when I was very young, 20. And that was my first, uh, role was, uh, you know, on air and, and, and in commercial radio. And so media was where I started and, and then moved across.

Jac Phillips: the ditch, as they say, or the Dutch. And, uh, started my marketing career, uh, in Australia, though I did work in a couple more radio stations in my early, uh, days, um, which was fantastic. And that sort of, you know, helped me build my network. I didn't really know anyone in Australia when I arrived at, uh, 21.

Jac Phillips: From there, it seemed like a natural progression to go from sort of media into marketing. And I've always, always been curious about behavior and people. Um, Lucy, I really have. So anyone who's curious about behavior and people, uh, you know, and insights is, is likely to find themselves probably loving marketing and marketing as a career.

Jac Phillips: So, um, yeah, off I went into the world of marketing and, and I pretty much started in, in agency land, actually creative agency land. I moved from Canberra to Sydney and started in my first relationship marketing agency. Uh, and that was an awesome, um, experience. DM and RM, you know, direct marketing, relationship marketing was right up my alley because again, I was so curious about people.

Jac Phillips: I was probably more interested in that than I was above the line and, and advertising. Even though we were part of an advertising agency, the relationship marketing, uh, function was, was a, was a component of it. So, um, from there moved around Australia, working in different agencies, then found myself pregnant.

Jac Phillips: Goodness knows. Immaculate conception, of course. Um, and hightail it back to where my mother and father lived, which was Perth, WA at this point, because I'd need some help. And, um, again, worked in some agencies and set up a little consulting business while I was at home with two very, very little babies. Uh, so quickly had another one following the first and, um.

Jac Phillips: Decided I could manage. I had two good kids. They were pretty easy. 

Lucy Bolan: I 

Jac Phillips: was pretty organized. I had a lot of help. I had my mother in law across the road. I had mum up the road. So I thought, look, um, I can probably go and do a little bit of, um, marketing, consulting, and advising, which is what I did. And it kept me.

Jac Phillips: Interested and, uh, I guess a little bit more interesting because I, I, whilst I love being a mum, I also just needed something, um, with, with the brain. And I was also, I guess, conscious of not becoming irrelevant or losing too much, I guess, information and or training and development by being, uh, at home full time.

Jac Phillips: Okay. So this is back in the days where organisations certainly, you know, weren't doing the parental leave support that they might do today. Yeah. So while I was at home, I said to my husband, I'd love to go to Asia and work in Asia. I had seen some really interesting things going on in Asia. I was reading.

Jac Phillips: Uh, and so he said, well, do it. Uh, he's always been my, my biggest supporter and he was always around for the kids, which meant I had that, um, ability to, to do that. So off I trotted up to Singapore and had a chat to a couple of recruitment agencies, a couple of Lucy's that were up, and They looked at me, they looked at my resume, they said, this is interesting, nothing here at the moment, but we'll stay in touch.

Jac Phillips: I don't think I was home a week and I got a call and it was Leo Burnett saying they were looking for a client services director for a component of their business, which was relationship marketing. And I got a gig in Singapore, so we moved the family up to Singapore and that was in the year 2000. Gosh.

Jac Phillips: So 25 years ago. 

Lucy Bolan: And, and, you know, when you look back, cause. I know you've, you know, since then, I mean, you were obviously with A and Z for like banking for a long time. And, um, I understand, I think it was Visa was the last. Visa was my last corporate gig. Yeah. How did you, I mean, I, I sort of, you know, I'll give you my, my opinion here, but I sort of look at people like yourself and, you know, you, you do come across as very confident, you, you know, have this infectious sort of energy and enthusiasm and.

Lucy Bolan: You know, you look back at, I look at LinkedIn, you look it back at your career and it seems like, how have you? You know, seize these opportunities. Like, is it down to honestly good networking? Is it down to luck? Like what's the secret formula? 

Jac Phillips: That's a great question. And one I've probably not reflected on much.

Jac Phillips: I've missed out on way more jobs than I've ever had. You know, so this idea that I've just gone from one job to the other, and it's all being tickety boo. You know, that's the Instagram look and feel, but it's completely not reality. Um, and I've been given some hard feedback in my time and I've probably missed out on a lot of feedback that I should have been given in my time for their reasons.

Jac Phillips: But I just kept going. I just kept believing in myself, I guess. And you know, look, a lot of it was bluff. Uh, I had a father who was incredible, uh, and he's still alive today and still a bit of a mentor without him even realizing it. I remember saying to him in my first serious challenge I had when I was at the radio station in WA and, uh, we were downsizing, you know, media, everyone was cutting budgets.

Jac Phillips: And I was told, not only will you have an on air segment, but you're also going to need to learn how to produce commercials. We need you in the production studio four mornings a week for three hours. 

Lucy Bolan: And 

Jac Phillips: I was put in the studio and shown the 16 track desk, which looked like something in the front of an airplane.

Jac Phillips: I remember calling my father saying, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing and I can't do this. And he said. How do you know you can't do it? And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, have you given it a crack? And I said, no, he said, well, don't have a go at it. Then call me and tell me you can't do it. And of course, like anything, I, I, I, I learned very quickly.

Jac Phillips: It wasn't actually that difficult. Um, I needed, I needed a few hours to practice and of course I did the better I got and that stayed with me. You know, if you don't have a go and if you don't put yourself forward, how. Will you ever know? Yeah. Um, and most people that hire you aren't hiring you to fail, they're hiring you to succeed because their reputation's on the line.

Jac Phillips: So I sort of took, I think, a lot of that with me when I would go for roles and think, well, this is a bit of a stretch, but I need the stretch. I don't want to stay where I am. And I want to learn something new. I want to work for somebody different. So I should expect that I don't know it all and it will be different.

Jac Phillips: And that's okay. The self talk, I think, positive self talk just kept me applying for things and giving things a go. The network has played a massive, massive role. role in my, in my trajectory. And my network has never worked harder for me than it does now and, and, and how timely, because I work for myself and I need that, you know, to, to work.

Jac Phillips: Um, I don't have a, you know, a, a, a corporate role to, to, to lean on. I'm, I'm, I am my, my pipeline. 

Lucy Bolan: I am the future. Yeah. I heard a saying, um, recently, actually, that my network is my net worth. Oh. Oh, mmm. That's so, so true. 

Jac Phillips: It's a really interesting one, the network. I don't know whether you're okay to get into this now, but of course I coach so many people and particularly senior level women and a lot of female marketers.

Lucy Bolan: And 

Jac Phillips: I'll often say to me, you know, I'll say, how's your network? Uh, you know, what, what, how networked are you? And the first thing I'll go is I hate that whole term network. I hate the idea of having to go out and network. And I said, it really does need a rebrand because of. I've got a feeling the way I'm thinking about networking and the way you're thinking about networking is different.

Jac Phillips: And they say how so? And I say networking is about what you can actually do for others. When you are relying on your network to help you, which is usually when you want another job or your next job or a new job, 

Lucy Bolan: it's 

Jac Phillips: actually too late because if you are helping people all the way through and talking to people and being really open and genuinely Uh, building and interested in helping others and helping new people, then when the time comes.

Jac Phillips: That reciprocation is there, people will absolutely help you and people will talk about you and they will promote you. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. Yeah. I, I completely agree with that completely. I, I have a personal KPI where once a week I'll introduce five people for coffees with other people, whether it's CMOs with CMOs or, and you know, I'm not.

Lucy Bolan: It's not like a charge for that, you know, but I think, well, you know, you get remembered and you've spoken about, and you know, you're also doing some good. There's so much 

Jac Phillips: value in 

Lucy Bolan: that. 

Jac Phillips: I 

Lucy Bolan: get 

Jac Phillips: genuine joy, delight, and purpose out of connecting people. I mean, it's part of my proposition as an executive coach.

Jac Phillips: So when you sign up for me, I actually create a package for you. And within that packages, I will introduce you to new networks. I will access networks that you've not accessed before, if it's relevant and if it's appropriate. Yeah. Um, and I, I spent an hour last night connecting two or three really great people with some other people.

Jac Phillips: And it's something I really look forward to doing. 

Lucy Bolan: Looking back at your career and knowing everything that you know now, is there any advice that you think, you know what, I'd have given that Jack Phillips when she was 28 years old, a bit of, a bit of advice, what words of wisdom would you share? 

Jac Phillips: How long have you got?

Jac Phillips: So if you are a leader or you are somebody coming through the Rancid Centre this podcast now, you've got clearly great taste because you're listening to this. But the advice I would give myself, look, back yourself. You deserve a seat at the table. You know, imposter syndrome creeps in at 28, at 48, at 58, at 78, would you believe it?

Jac Phillips: That just never leaves you, but you don't worry about that. You just work through it. You know, you're more capable than you give yourself credit for, yeah? And confidence comes from action. So speak up, share your ideas, you know, trust that your perspective is valuable, um, realize that relationships matter more than titles.

Jac Phillips: Success isn't just about climbing this corporate ladder, it's actually about building these strong genuine relationships, your network as we talk about, yeah. The connections you make now, the mentors, the peers, the clients, the mentees, they'll shape your career in ways that you would never predict. So always invest in those relationships.

Lucy Bolan: Um, 

Jac Phillips: get comfortable with discomfort. Yeah. Uncertainty. Uncertainty is exciting. There's only two certainties, sadly, death and taxes. And the fact I'll have a glass of wine on a Friday, that's three certainties. But growth happens outside of our comfort zone. Whenever. I have actually excelled or learned more about myself.

Jac Phillips: It's when I've actually done something I've been a bit scared about. Yeah, I've actually tried something in a job. I've gone on to something and I thought, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'll figure it out. I'll ask others, I'll read or I'll learn. So say yes before you feel a hundred percent ready.

Jac Phillips: Um, and think beyond the job. Yeah. I talk about personal brands a lot. Build your brand, right? Your reputation is your current. It really is. It's not just about excelling in your role. You know, it's about being known for something, you know, start writing, start speaking, mentor others. Your personal brand will open doors long before you realize you need them.

Jac Phillips: My awesome podcast cohost, Gabrielle Dolan, Raul, you know, she says, what's a personal brand. It's not what you say about yourself. It's what others say about you when you're not. And it's so true. Yeah. And we've all got a personal brand, whether you like it or not. The difference is some of us are trying to shape and control our personal brand, whereas others don't.

Jac Phillips: That's a worry. And I think finally play the long game. Yeah. Balance results, reputation. Yes. They matter. Of course we need results. You need results to demonstrate you, you know, you craft, you're an expert or. You are, uh, qualified. Um, but how you achieve results really matters here. You know, who you are is actually more important than what you do.

Jac Phillips: Um, think about the long term and maybe 

Lucy Bolan: exercise a bit of patience. I think that was some fantastic ingredients you've given us, given us there. So I love it. Love it. I want to ask a question. So, I mean, a lot of the listeners that, that listened to this podcast are, as I've said, you know, aspiring CMOs, or, you know, there might be at that mid level management remit and the thing about, you know, I really want to get to that head of, or, you know, next level, what is it that you should probably be aware of that, you know, when we're going into leadership until you're in it, you kind of go, Oh, right.

Lucy Bolan: aware of that, you know, what would you say to those or give those individuals? What piece of advice would you give them? 

Jac Phillips: I think as you are growing and learning and developing, get a coach, you know, and, and I don't say that. I mean, I've, I've had coaches for years and they've absolutely made a difference to me.

Jac Phillips: So somebody that she makes you stop and look in the mirror and reflect, because I was really good at bum down, head up, just go forward. My idea of reflection was, was, was an hour earlier, nothing, nothing more, um, again, being in a bit of a hurry, being quite ambitious. So what that means when you're not.

Jac Phillips: reflecting. It means that you're not actually stopping and thinking about what are my strengths? Have I changed? What do I want to dial up? What do I want to dial down? And also, what do I bring to the table? And I mentioned that before, be really clear about who you are. This comes back to unique value proposition.

Jac Phillips: I think Lucy, really, you know, what makes you different from other? people, you know, what's going to help you stand out? And that really is defining your superpower or your, or your strengths. You know, are you a growth strategist? Are you a brand builder? Or are you a customer insights guru? Whatever it is, whatever it is that is.

Jac Phillips: And you can be a generalist too, but there will be something in there that is very much your wheelhouse, the stuff that really fires you up. Well, what is it about that, that makes you different or better than somebody else who's the same? Yeah. So you need to position yourself and the answer to that to solving business problems.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. But so, so you're not just another marketer, you're having this clear narrative around, you know, what ties together your experience, also your impact. And that is that strong personal brand. Here's what people. Tell me I do really, really well. And here are some proof points to demonstrate how I've done that really, really well.

Jac Phillips: Um, we, I used to giggle, you know, the marketing department, yeah, the calorie in department often had huge budgets and I never, ever took advantage of that. I was so. I guess privileged and, and honored that I was a trustee of that money on behalf of that brand or organization. But if I wasn't showing results and showing the commercial acumen and saying, well, this is how we're getting the return on the investment.

Jac Phillips: This is how we're going to track these results and measure them. This is how we know this is going to work. Or if we don't know what's going to work, we're going to do a test and learn first. So it's the ability to be able to take all of those things and demonstrate your commercial now. It's your commercial.

Jac Phillips: And that has to be also about the strategic acumen that you've got to, so showcasing that and being able to do that in a way that really shows revenue growth, you know, cost savings, ROI, um, partnerships and relationship building. So you should be a marketer that absolutely understands the value of strategic partnerships internally as much as externally.

Jac Phillips: Some of the best work I've done, and particularly in my later years where I was given access to really great resources, and I had a lot of influence was. Partnering with things that maybe the brands weren't traditionally known to partner with. Visa, you know, a fairly, a fairly traditional, conventional digital payments network is that was digital.

Jac Phillips: Um, obviously it became digital. What was, was plastic initially, but saying, you know, actually, if we want kids to use Visa on their phone, then we need to be where the kids are. Where are they? Oh, they're at festivals. Yeah. So how do I get Visa? And how do I make sure that experience isn't because we're trying to sell somebody something, but it's actually trying to enhance their festival experience.

Jac Phillips: And so working in a way that, and showing people that you've got a really creative and broader thinking when it comes to you compared to others, I think, you know, that that's how you're memorable. That's how you show initiative 

Lucy Bolan: and creativity. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No, completely. I, I wanted to ask.

Lucy Bolan: Throughout your career, I mean, you know, when people become leaders and I know from that for one, when I became a leader myself, it was almost right off you go sink or swim and no rule book or instruction manual that comes with that. And so. Was it a case that, did you learn your, did you shape your leadership skills from looking at other leaders that you admired?

Lucy Bolan: And I mean, you know, we know that there's leaders out there that you go, absolutely not. I want to avoid that completely. But you know what? I love that. And I love how you've operated that. So how did you shape your leadership style? 

Jac Phillips: Yeah, exactly. Exactly how you described. I have worked with some fuckwits.

Jac Phillips: I can tell you right. At, at, at the very senior levels, people that were paid extraordinarily well. who treated others appallingly and who actually were there because of their network. Yeah. The irony, right? Yeah. Um, but I learned from them. I learned how not to be. And I sort of knew that anyway. Okay.

Jac Phillips: Because there was a misalignment of my values and their values anyway. But, but I also, it, it reinforced and reminded me how powerful leadership is when it is done well and how awful and impactful it is when it's not done well. And it's actually been leadership that has driven me. And I guess. My growth has been around how do I become a really good leader, a leader that cares for people, but holds them accountable, a leader that is fair, but firm.

Jac Phillips: It's very similar to parenting in many, many ways. If I was their best friend, then I wasn't being a good leader. However, I also needed to build relationships that were, you know, uh, deep and meaningful with people. And I cared about them. I cared about them way more. Then I did the work actually, uh, because I cottoned on pretty quickly based on my own experience being led by a very good leader and being led by a very bad leader.

Jac Phillips: The difference in the incremental value I would offer if I worked for someone who really stretched me and took a real interest in me and believed in me. And I've always said, you know, what is my USP as a person? And it is to unlock the, or my purpose I should say, is to unlock the potential of brands and people.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. And I have been doing that for a very, very long time. I was doing it as a junior leader. Yeah. Trying to unlock the potential of a brand, but also because I had relationships in agencies. I had relationships. It's one or two, maybe one direct report at the time. If I could unlock that person's, uh, potential and or the agency through great relationships, then I would be successful because I can't do all the work.

Jac Phillips: I'm, I'm not an island. Uh, in fact, the, the more senior you become, the less on the tools you are, of course. Uh, and that's something that I talk about a lot to, to my clients. So, so, so get a great coach, uh, learn from the leaders you've got and the best leaders I work for question things. They used absolutely critical analysis and curiosity all the time.

Jac Phillips: They coached their people. They were great coaches. Um, they wouldn't tell us exactly what to do. They might tell us what the outcome was they wanted. And then they would encourage us to think about how we would get there. 

Lucy Bolan: And one of 

Jac Phillips: the best questions any leader can ask their team or individuals in their team is what's the barrier that would stop you from doing this?

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, 

Jac Phillips: yeah, yeah, yeah. Be a mindset or, um, something that we don't know as a leader. So you learn so much from leaders and it has been leadership that has driven me because I love. Great leadership. And I see the positive impact it has not just on teams and on the brand and the business, but also on families.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. Because we all take our work home. Our work comprises of so much of our lives. And if you've got miserable staff because you're a miserable shit of a leader, then that's. Um, actually play havoc on people's personal lives. And I, that, that's something I have a real issue with because no job is, is worth it.

Jac Phillips: Oh, 

Lucy Bolan: absolutely. And as a recruiter, I had all sorts of, you can imagine. Oh. I can imagine. Every day. Well, not every day, but regularly. Um, one question I do have, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this. So I often have myself, you know, a lot of, a lot of marketers that, you know, they go for interviews. And one thing they're looking forward to your point is really, really amazing leaders.

Lucy Bolan: And it's, it's hard because it's like, you know, it's, you know, you're in a chocolate shop and you're like, well, they all look absolutely amazing. And then you might taste one and go, Oh God, now I'm not going back for that. And only once you're in there and you've purchased, you know, so how do we, you know, when you're at that interview stage, is there any.

Lucy Bolan: Questions or any advice you give in terms of the task? Oh, yes, yes, 

Jac Phillips: yes, yes. There are so many things. I coach on this a lot. Yeah. Your relationship with your leader, and I guess to some extent the relationship they have with their leader, is going to absolutely shape whether you have a great experience or not.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. That doesn't mean to say you should look for somebody who is a mirror image to you. Diversity is important. When you are being interviewed, you should always have questions. That are very much directed at your leader or new leader. And those questions should, should, they, they, they need to align to your needs.

Jac Phillips: And of course your needs change at different times, right? So my needs as a 32 year old mother in the workplace are very different to my needs when I was a 52 year old. Head of Marketing for Visa Australia, New Zealand, South Pacific. I have different needs from a personal perspective. Yeah, but most importantly, what are your needs for your future direction?

Jac Phillips: So where are you going and where do you want to go? And is this going to be the right leader for you? So there are a number of questions. One of the first questions should be okay. If I am a 35 year old mum or dad, flexibility is pretty important. I do want to be working remotely or even if I'm not worried about working remotely, will I have the support of the leadership if I need to be at home with a child or child care is falling over or whatever.

Jac Phillips: So being able to ask that question really up front. Yeah. Talk to me about. Uh, people in the organization that have families, you know, how, how does it work when it comes to remote working? Well, how does it work when it comes to flexibility? Have no issue in asking that question. If you are worried that if you ask that question, that it might mean you don't get the role, then that was never going to be the right answer.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So, so the more direct and upfront you can be about this stuff, the better. The other thing is, you know, trying to understand from this leader, what are they doing that's really making a difference in the organization and how do they, uh, use development and how do they support people in order to grow and stretch them?

Jac Phillips: Because you're obviously going to be evaluating that for yourself, right? Yeah. Um, how would they define success? You know, what, what a success in this role and the person coming in, if it's you, then what are they expecting of them to try and get a bit of a sense of, okay, is this going to be a job I can absolutely give my all, but I'm being supported, you know, what's the.

Jac Phillips: How would you describe the culture and, and, and who was the last person you promoted and how did that, how did that work? The more information you can ask about that leader and their style and the sort of decisions they make around the things that will matter to you and your future, the better insights you're going to get in order to say, well, actually, I think that's going to be the right place for me, or I'm not sure I'm going to thrive there.

Jac Phillips: Uh huh. Uh huh. When 

Lucy Bolan: you look back at your career, were there any, were there, cause. Were there any aha moments or, you know, that sort of like golden lightbulb moment for you when you were like, Oh, okay, I've got the full package now. 

Jac Phillips: Well, no, there were golden lightbulb moments of like, Oh my God, I can't believe it.

Jac Phillips: You know, what a disaster I, I created and, and, but I've learned a lot from it and thank goodness that happened. Um, but when you say the full package expand on that, what do you mean? 

Lucy Bolan: Well, you know, getting to that, I guess, you know, real sort of moment of perhaps career euphoria where it's like, you know what, I'm happy, I'm confident, I've got a thriving team.

Lucy Bolan: I've got a, you know, was there ever that moment you got to where it was like, you know what, this is great. Um, you know, that moment in my career where I'm, I've never been happier. 

Jac Phillips: Yeah. Look, I'm an incredibly happy person and I'm an optimistic person. I'm very rarely unhappy. That's not to say I haven't had clustered up jobs.

Jac Phillips: I have been miserable in those jobs, but I, I don't, I don't stay miserable. I don't stay in something that doesn't work. Yeah. Um, but every role has been a hoot and a learning experience here. And I've met so many people who've rocked my world. I really have, as well as the Dick kids that we spoke about and they are to teach that they teach us, you know, how, how to behave and how not to behave.

Jac Phillips: Um, every role has been a gift. I reckon the last. I mean, I was 10 years at ANZ, Lucy. I tried to talk ANZ out of hiring me because I said, I'm just not a banking type. I'd just come back from Singapore and I met an awesome guy who was leading the marketing for the financial planning unit. And he said, yep, no, we need you.

Jac Phillips: I need someone senior to me that can do this. You just come back from Singapore. You've got all these great skills. And I said, this ain't going to work. I'm not banking. You know, I, I don't think it'll work and, and I'm, I'm so sorry, but, uh, you know, ANZ is really impressive and everything, but I'm just, I can't, I'm passionate about it.

Jac Phillips: Anyway, I convinced him and he convinced me that we should give this a go a test and learn. So we did an experiment. Yeah. And I said, I'll come on a three month experiment or project or, you know, consulting sort of scenario. After one week, I went home to my husband and said, Oh my God, the bank, it has so many resources.

Jac Phillips: It has so many awesome people. I'm, I'm going to be trained. I'm going to be developed. I'm going to be invested in. We're working on incredible things and we're helping people figure out how to grow their wealth. And of course I was at that. age of my sort of early 40s were like, that was really important.

Jac Phillips: So, you know, what was going to be some three month little contract ended up being 10 years and I moved all around the bank. So that was an amazing opportunity. The best role in the bank I had was the one at the, toward the very end of my 10 year career at ANZ and that was. Leading the marketing for the ANZ private bank, but talking to ultra high net worth and high net worth people.

Jac Phillips: And the reason why that was such a heavy was because we had to be really, really creative in how we engage with huge amounts of money that were all multi bank. Private bank. So we had to, to really think beyond what, what was traditional sort of money and dive way deeper into, uh, experiential and give them access to people and information that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Jac Phillips: And, and that stretched us. So, so that was a real hoop. Going from there to the Bank of Melbourne is, is one of my career highlights for two reasons. One, because I was given huge resources to do something really provocative, and I got to work under a CEO who I reported directly to, that not only trusted my judgment, but absolutely pushed me to be provocative, pushed me to do different things and try so we could really help the Bank of Melbourne brand cut through.

Jac Phillips: And to be given that support, and, and he loved marketing. I worked for someone who really saw the value in marketing. He loved marketing. He wanted to be involved in marketing, but not to the point where he, uh, had the final say, but we had really great discussions and as a result, we did some really cool things with the Bank of Melbourne, which was owned by Westpac at the time.

Jac Phillips: And then the last gig, which was Visa. I mean, I remember pinching myself on yet another flight to somewhere exotic. You know, I was sent to the South of France to go to the Cannes Line. You know, I was sent regularly to amazing places where we would do off sites to really understand that a market in Asia, Myanmar, you know, and, and we would meet business owners and, and we as marketers would be able to use all these insights.

Jac Phillips: You know, we did campaigns, you know, I did a campaign with a comedian, Ronnie Chang, you know, we partnered. Banjo in the grass. We partnered with the fashion festival. We did so many awesome things and it was because I had the trust of a group of executives who said we need to be different. We need to cut through and who trusted myself and my team and we had awesome agency partners.

Jac Phillips: Anything I have done in my marketing career has not been done in isolation. I have been the smallest component. All I've done. It has, you know, is influence, um, connect, uh, manage up and, and sign off budgets, but the brilliance has come from my team, you know, and, and the agency partners and those, those other, uh, I guess, extended elements of our marketing that helped us achieve what we did.

Jac Phillips: And, and, and that to me has been such a, such a great experience. I've been incredibly, incredibly privileged and, um, yeah, it's been, uh, it's 

Lucy Bolan: been great. It sounds, honestly, yeah, I think you've got about 10 aha moments in all of that, even perhaps I'm sure there's a lot more, but is there any resources or, you know, any, any thought leaders or, you know, any specific, I don't know, marketers or events or books that you'd say, if you're wanting to get to the top spot one day, get a load of that, you know, start following these people or get on top of this.

Jac Phillips: Um, I, I think you can learn from everyone. I really do. I think everybody's a resource. Yeah. I mean, you know, the guy that takes our rubbish. If I have a yarn to him, I'll learn something, you know, um, it's, it's finding time. Exercise for me is a favorite resource and I know that's a blankie, but I, I, I run and I run in nature and some of my best ideas come from when I'm exercising.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So I'm not in front of a screen because I'm always on otherwise. Uh, and where my mind can just wander. So that's a resource I absolutely tap into three, four times a week. Yeah. I'm talking to people, um, podcasts like this, Lucy, you know, access and listen to other people in their experiences where you go, Oh yeah, yeah.

Jac Phillips: Oh, I should try that. Oh, I might, might go and do that. Um, the keeping it real podcast, which is, you know, I had to say. Yeah. I'd run, you know, with, with Raoul, Gabrielle Doolin. I mean, this teaches me heaps. So yes, I'm a co host of the podcast and I'm putting forward topics, but the things I learned from listening to Raoul, the things I learned from the keepers, our listeners that send up ideas for topics or, or to share a story with us, um, or feedback or insights, um, anything Mark Ritson says.

Jac Phillips: I'm a massive fan. Mark Brinson fan. I've, I've, I've mucked around with him for some time in, in the past. Uh, he's been a great supporter of, of me and some of the work I've done. I've been a massive supporter of him. His mini NBA, do it. Absolutely do it. And if your company won't cover the cost of it, invest in yourself and do it, or it'll pay off.

Jac Phillips: You can also follow him on LinkedIn and he writes a great column for Marketing Week, which is a UK online marketing magazine. Professor Scott Galloway. Oh my God. Do I have the hots 

Lucy Bolan: for man? 

Jac Phillips: Uh, so he's. He's as naughty and rude as I am, and unwoke as I am, so, um, but he is one smart cookie. And he's got a number of platforms he's on.

Jac Phillips: His, uh, email newsletter, uh, No Malice, No Mercy, is awesome. Uh, he's got the Prof G, uh, platform, which is, which is, uh, podcasts. Um, another guy that I sort of, um, accessed just by accident a couple of years ago is an Indian gentleman who's based in the U. S. now, Rishabh Tabakawala. Okay. And he has this amazing newsletter that I get something from every week that I read it and it's called, The Future Does Not Fit Into the Containers of the Past.

Jac Phillips: Rishad Tabakawala. He's also on LinkedIn. He is Steven Bartlett, Diary of a CEO podcast. I love him. Love him. Oh, I could go on and on. I tell you, there are two people in my life or there's three, uh, my husband, but my two kids, 28 and 26, both in marketing, but in very different fields. I learned so much from them because they're right at the, the, the cusp of what's going on.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. You know, they're, they're, they're digital natives. Um, They understand technology very well and, and they're both doing really interesting things in different areas of market and learning huge amounts from them. Now the traditional stuff doesn't change. Yeah. Having a great strategy, knowing who you're targeting, you know, um, understand really clearly what the outcomes need to be.

Jac Phillips: Are you going to measure success? All of those things stay the same. It's everything that Mark Ritson speaks about. Doesn't matter what the platform is. It doesn't matter, you know, whether it's digital or whether it's traditional, whether it's below the line, through the line, above the line, all of those things that I'm just talking about, that, uh, things about, and it's interest and curiosity in people and in, in consumers and behavior, but just looking at, you know, what, where we're going with AI, I mean, it's fascinating.

Jac Phillips: You must be seeing this. I mean, what are you advising to the people you're talking to in regards to the clients you're, you're finding roles for, what are you talking to them about AI? I'd like to ask you 

Lucy Bolan: that. Yeah, look, absolutely. Far away. Quite like being asked a question on my podcast. Um, I, it's interesting.

Lucy Bolan: I've spoken to quite a few people that I'd actually consider to be, you know, AI experts is one guy. Um, Tony Gruber, he's actually written a book, AI for CEOs. And I'd say to anyone to get a load of that, because yeah, he's a smart cookie. Um, I think anyone's still figuring it out, to be honest. There's no one out there that's right now, I'd say an absolute Uber of org structures, and I think what's happening now in regards to AI, it's very much, people are very much starting to factor it in, think, but I think it's going to take another year or so before we really start to see those roles changing.

Lucy Bolan: And people start, I think there's a lot of assuming at the moment around, Oh, we're not going to need a copywriter. Well, we're going to have to change this or this is going to be, you know, maybe SEO will be affected. I spoke to a CMO recently who actually said, I think as much as marketing, yes, it's cause there's going to be changes around that.

Lucy Bolan: And I think with new technologies coming in, it'll be implicated. I think developers specifically in that back end, there's going to be, you know, changes massively where, you know. 16 or 20 stages can be done with one, you know, so it's like really starting to look at how we can upskill there and work with AI in a positive way.

Lucy Bolan: Start to think, okay, well, yeah, we've got chat DPT and look, you know, I think it's a fantastic tool. I'm very aware though, I think with it is, you know, they call it now, what is it? Synthetic slop whereby everything's just, you know, AI generated. And I can see content straight away and I'm like, Oh God, you've not written that.

Lucy Bolan: And I think now the people, you know, I want authentic content. I want more 

Jac Phillips: than 

Lucy Bolan: ever. Yeah, I crave it. You know, I don't want some computer that's backed something out. And I'm trying to believe that someone else has written it. So I think there's going to be more craving for that real huge content. if more so than ever.

Lucy Bolan: So it's going to be an interesting one and one to watch. And I think, yeah, my role, the more I see it definitely is going to be, you know, getting people that are aware of it. If you've done courses, um, there's a marketing Academy, AI workshop, Catherine Tom's runs that. So I definitely recommend, um, reaching out to her.

Lucy Bolan: She does a lot of AI workshops for various businesses. And I know she's a busy lady at the moment, so she's doing well. I that, that's a great 

Jac Phillips: answer. Look, you know, critical thinking, problem solving, using generative AI and doing that in a way that's ethical and, and, and productive. You know, they're, they're the top skills apparently that knowledge workers are gonna need to thrive.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So, so critical thinking, problem solving and using generative ai. I use AI every day and it in different ways for different things. Um, and they're saying around one. fifth, I think it was, of all current occupations, I wrote something down here, will be replaced by artificial intelligence by 2030. But the jobs that won't be replaced, and particularly given these are jobs like marketing, where you actually rely on core human skill.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So, you know, the traits that are going to be really difficult for AI to replicate, which is curiosity, you know, intuition, creativity, imagination. It can, AI can help spark those things. I was listening to a really great podcast the other day of a couple that were in an agency, a marketing agency that have gone off and they've created, um, a platform, an AI platform to help agencies reduce, uh, pitch time.

Jac Phillips: You know, so, so making them way more productive, but it's not just about making the pitch efficient. It's also about in sparking more curiosity, sparking more inspiration as part of this AI platform. So if you're not developing creativity, intuition, curiosity, imagination, and continuing to do that, then you aren't going to stay relevant.

Jac Phillips: And, and the big tip there is that, you know, You're not going to develop those if you're in back to back meetings and reading emails all day. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. I mean, get it, have the, make the time, invest in yourself, as you've said. 

Jac Phillips: Yeah, I play with AI, I have a crack at it, you know, there's deep seat, there's chat GPT, there's copilot, there's so many options, then there's the visual ones, I mean, I have a hoot playing with them, you know, the kids laugh at me, but it's, if you don't use it, you lose it, right?

Jac Phillips: Or if you can't possibly. Talk about it. And I suspect, and you again should answer this one, you're the recruiter, more and more of, uh, marketing leaders are going to be expecting people to know how to use AI for efficiency and not just in the, the, the back room, not just on the development, developing side, uh, but also those that are leading and those that are, you know, running brand campaigns and things.

Jac Phillips: How can they? For efficiency and for effect, but not to replace the thinking. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, it's coming down to, I think, individuals that nowadays, you know, if you can ups, you know, be even more technically savvy across this AI that's coming through. And I say to anyone, you know, if you're thinking about upskilling, definitely AI is something you need to factor in a hundred percent, you know, like there's, there's workshops and training courses that I know that businesses are running and they're on to a winner because it's the, it's the right time people, you know, is still trying to figure this stuff out.

Jac Phillips: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if you're an older marketer, listen to this, and I'm not going to say what that age is. It's, it's, it's how you're feeling. I suspect don't. Let this pass you by. Don't be, don't be fearful of it. You know, I remember when email started, you know, I remember when mobile phones that were smartphones and, and, you know, when, when an Apple tablet came out, you know, an iPod and thinking, Oh my God, you know, within minutes, you figure this stuff out.

Jac Phillips: It's actually really intuitive. It's not difficult. It really isn't. It's a mindset. So always, always have a crack. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Well, Jack, it has been an absolute pleasure. I have, I feel like I could talk to you all day, to be honest. I really do. I feel like you're just this, yeah, infectious energy ball, which, yeah, it's just been so great to listen to you.

Lucy Bolan: And thank you so much for coming on the show. I've really, really enjoyed it. 

Jac Phillips: Well, thank you for inviting me on, Lucy. I've loved our conversation and like you, I think there's, you know, we're only scratching the surface. Imagine if we were in a bar with a glass. Oh my 

Lucy Bolan: gosh. Bring it on. Bring on the Cosmos.

Lucy Bolan: I'm back.

Lucy Bolan: Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Lucy Bolan: Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END

Lucy Bolan: Welcome to the CMO chapter podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights, and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO.

Lucy Bolan: This podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate. Excellent. So I am delighted today to be joined by Gabrielle Sheenan, the one and only. I have known Gabrielle now for, my God, it feels like, I don't know, 10 years or it feels like a long time. At least, at least.

Lucy Bolan: Let's not go further. We won't go, we won't go any further, but look, Gabrielle, I'm delighted to have you joined today. Um, I'm going to let you introduce yourself and then we'll, we'll fire into it. Oh, well, 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Lucy, firstly, thank you for inviting me to join your podcast and congratulations on today being your.

Gabrielle Sheehan: First birthday or you come around the corner on new chapter, which is such an exciting proposition within itself. Thank you. Uh, I started in marketing in the early nineties. So that just dating myself there post finishing university and I've. I had a very dynamic career, I worked in media buying and then I transitioned into brand strategy or from the, from a planning perspective within a creative agency and I transitioned to being a client and now more recently, well, last 10 years being a independent freelance marketer.

Lucy Bolan: Now known as 

Gabrielle Sheehan: a fractional 

Lucy Bolan: CMO. Fractional. And I guess that was one of the reasons why I was really curious. I mean, there's lots of reasons why I wanted to get you on this episode. Lots of reasons. I wanted to talk to you about obviously your career. Uh, we wanted to cover off a little bit more about what you're seeing around brands in general and some various trends you're seeing.

Lucy Bolan: Cause I know I see you as the brand guru when it comes down to all things brand. Um, and then another really key that I also thought we could cover off would be. You are, you know, you've been doing what we now call the fractional CMO role for, is it 10 years? Yeah, 10 years. About 10 years? Yep. And so you were doing it before it really became more of a, shall we say, a thing.

Lucy Bolan: So I know there's going to be a lot of listeners that we have that have just perhaps started to tap into that. So we'll also cover off a little bit more detail around maybe some advice that you can give those listeners around the do's and the don'ts and, you know, what you found that works, what you found that doesn't, that kind of thing.

Lucy Bolan: Um, going into your career, so I don't think there's many brands that you've probably not worked with at some point or industry, shall we say, cause you've done a lot. Yeah. So I guess let's talk about, you know, is this specific highlight for you that really sticks out? Like you think, you know what, that was it.

Lucy Bolan: That was that point where things just started to come into play or made sense for me in regards to my marketing career. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah, look, I'll go back really early in my career. I had the opportunity, I was working in Sydney for a fantastic media director called John Preston at Mojo, then Mojo Partners, which became True North and then something else.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And it was right at the time when media was no longer the back office. Of the advertising agency and we had an opportunity, some planners came out from BBH in London and they were working on, um, Polaroid. And it was the first time I really was exposed to immersion of a brand in situ. So they came out and they showed us that Polaroid was doing a massive relaunch.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So this is the mid nineties and we went into nightclubs and bars and parks and places that people are celebrating and just having fun. And we took an old school camera, the film based camera, and we took a Polaroid. And we, we, and that we'll see the difference between what sort of photo happened when you took a film based photo versus a instant photo.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah. And it, and it wasn't the product per se, but it was showing how to experience the product from the consumer's perspective. And it really helped me understand all the connection points. It's not just media or creative or consumer or product. It's how do you join all of those dots in a cohesive way, in a simple minded thought that really compelled people to say, yes, you're talking to me.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So that probably was the moment that I thought I want to become a brand strategist. 

Lucy Bolan: And that's quite powerful as well, because you as the marketer, you know, the brand guru, you're seeing the reactions of individuals as well, responding there and then, which, you know, I'd get, I'd get a bit of a buzz off that, you know, oh, this is really cool.

Lucy Bolan: Like, you know, how we're sort of seeing that interaction as well. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah. And it's hysterical because, you know, if you think about Polaroid today, you think. That experiment is irrelevant because people have got their cameras on their phones, they're getting that instant experience. So what is the role of a Polaroid today is to make that same experience, that instant experience.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Physical as opposed to digital. 

Lucy Bolan: So 

Gabrielle Sheehan: repositioning is about that physical memory that you can put in your wallet, stick on your notice board, have in a, on your fridge, with your friend that you can't do so well with your phone. 

Lucy Bolan: Most 

Gabrielle Sheehan: people have got 77, photos, you know, and you can't spot them, you don't look at them.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So if I was working on Polaroid today, you would reposition it back to that physical memory that you have ever present. That the joy of photography gives you. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to understand a little bit more around going back perhaps a little bit as well. So. You, you've had the luxury, as we know, sort of in that media sort of agency space.

Lucy Bolan: That's where you sort of really cut your teeth. And then, am I right, you went into more sort of like pharmaceutical sort of industries, global company, then into health insurance, very reputable health insurer, where you also had the experience over that time you were in the UK as well. So you got to work overseas.

Lucy Bolan: So do you look back at that time? And because I've spoken to a lot of, you know, CMOs or GMs who've said, you know, that's one thing that I'm really glad I did. I was able to actually, you know, gain employment overseas. Did you see that as really beneficial back in your early days of your career? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Well, one thing you probably don't know about my career is that in, after I had that experience with Polaroid, I quit my job in Sydney and went to London.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Right. And I'd say every young marketer should move to another market early in their career, early. Get some global perspective. Go to a global market, work on a global brand, get active on how they work. So I had the fortunate opportunity to work as the regional media manager in my early mid, mid twenties, late twenties, Procter and Gamble.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So we launched a number of products. I worked in feminine hygiene and cosmetics and paper towels, and it wasn't so much the categories. It was the exposure to working with 27 markets. 

Lucy Bolan: Gosh. And did you find that job? Before you went to the UK, or was that just you were at the right time, right place, you were in the UK, you had the visa and you got them all?

Lucy Bolan: Right time, 

Gabrielle Sheehan: right place. But that's your, everyone's career, everyone's career, no matter whether you're at the end of your career, in the middle, at the start, it's about creating your own opportunities. So that opportunity was never going to be presented in Melbourne or in Sydney. I had to go and find it and I'd pursue it and be persistent.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And if I was honest, it was not easy to get in. Yeah, it wasn't. And no one was giving, doing me any favors. It was beat the street, hand in your CV, see the recruiters, front up, email, email. I just started dating myself, but you had to put the effort in and demonstrate you really wanted the job. Do 

Lucy Bolan: you think that is, is like, I mean, I don't know, you know, I know you're very generous with your time and you know, you do speak to Barry, you know, your mentor and you help people definitely within the industry.

Lucy Bolan: I've seen you do that. So do you see that? That's something where. Nowadays, perhaps there's a lot more self doubt, do you think? Like people sort of kind of really doubt themselves even more than perhaps, you know, what they maybe would have done back in those days? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Um, I think that the social media, so LinkedIn and, um, all the digital, um, publications in category now, it's a lot of marketers who are great at promoting.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Oh, look at what I've done. It, that is great, but that doesn't diminish the 95 and their effort. So that's interesting. And that should be provided as a piece of resource to say what is possible. Not, I haven't achieved, you say, Oh, well, they've done that. I can do that. Or I'm already doing that. And I'm going to do this and this, self promotion is an individual choice.

Gabrielle Sheehan: It's not a career defining structure. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. And you bang on, you really bang on. I think with that, it's really powerful statement. I think, uh, absolutely. I want to touch a little bit more on, I think one thing that, and I've, I've watched from afar and I've seen you do it. You know, certain scenarios and I've seen you mingle with people.

Lucy Bolan: Like, I feel like you're, you're just someone that, you know, you connect with people really well, you network with people really well. Is there an art to that? Like, have you, have you managed to, have you just learned, you know, more confidence as you've sort of got more experience in terms of how to do that?

Gabrielle Sheehan: Well, I believe that everyone comes into a room, especially when they come in on their own. They're just as nervous as everyone else, unless they know people. Yeah, no, the warmer and more welcoming you can be, the more comfortable it makes that other person. So it just means that you're interested. If you're a marketer, you should be interested in people's stories.

Lucy Bolan: If you're interested 

Gabrielle Sheehan: in, if you say you're interested in marketing, marketing by definition is, and I always say it's a verb. To go to market, marketing, I N G, marketing's a business of language and communicating, so if you can't communicate with your peers, up or down, then how, that's a great way to practice how you're going to talk to your customer.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Marketing is 60 percent method and 40 percent art. Yeah. Networking opportunities give you the practice of your art. How do you tell a story? How do you engage with someone? How do you find out more about them? How do you learn? So I see networking as much as a learning journey for me, as it is an opportunity for me to meet like minded people, share ideas.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I think that it is hard to do when you don't know to do it. The more you do, like anything, it's like building a muscle. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. And I think like you said, like naturally being curious, you know, I think it's, it's I know for me as a recruiter, that's something, I mean, I ask so many questions to so many people all the time because it's probably more, I think it's more of a personality.

Lucy Bolan: I'm quite curious to learn about people naturally. So it's probably the same, I think, with marketing. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yes. And I love, I love meeting people because people have all got their own journeys and their own stories and their own interests. And there's a lot of people who do fantastic, impressive marketing work in categories that I don't find particularly interesting.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah. But there's also people who are working on stuff that I am blown away by that I really wish this work that I wish I had done. 

Lucy Bolan: I want to, I want to tap into your experience. So at one point in your career, and we're going back to, I think it was about two, I think 2014 is when you left this particular role.

Lucy Bolan: But you were working for one of Australia's largest, uh, private health insurance providers. And I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I think your title was head of marketing and brand strategy. That's right. Uh, big, big role, big role. And I think that's actually when we first connected. I mean, at that point, I mean, I'm guessing you would have had a pretty established team, a really big team in terms of like, you know, stakeholders, managing direct reports, et cetera.

Lucy Bolan: At that point in your career, what did it teach you? Was there, was there something there that specifically there were any specific learnings? Because I mean, I see that as a quite a sort of key, a key sort of career moment for you. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah, uh, look, There's personal learnings and then there's professional learnings.

Gabrielle Sheehan: I'd say on a personal level, I realized that I'm an entrepreneur by heart. And when you're in a large organization of 17, 20, 000 people, and there's structures and processes, and you need to get 25 people on board with a single idea, and you're an entrepreneur and you just want to move forward. You've got to learn where, um, you've got to learn what your strengths and weaknesses are and how passionate you are about something.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I'd worked in the company for a long, long time. So I was ready for a change, do something where I could see my immediate impact. I didn't want to wait two years to have impact. And I think also that had nature to do with the type of business that it was. So, you know, fast moving consumer goods business.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Pace over perfection means you get something to market within six months. And when you work in a large. Global health insurance company, health business, actually, and gone from 2, 000 to 20, 000 people in a matter of 18 months, the machine slows down demonstrably. So the big learning I think personally and professionally is know what you love and follow and do the things that make you excited, because as a marketer, I always believe you're in the department of 

Lucy Bolan: no, everyone thinks 

Gabrielle Sheehan: because I've seen an ad or they hear an ad.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Or they have approved an ad that they know how to make an ad. And then they think marketing is only ads, it's so much more complex than the final product. So I think you've got to know where your passion point is, because you've got to be able to push through all the barriers to yes, because people want to say, Oh, is that all you did?

Lucy Bolan: Um, 

Gabrielle Sheehan: that looked pretty easy. I could have done that. Well, it's like, because they didn't get to cubism before he was able to do a beautiful portrait. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's the craft and the art of marketing is what I learned in that role is as a senior marketer, your job is to manage people. And I was getting further and further away from the craft.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah, and more about people and managing people. And so for me, I love helping people imagine their brand, imagine the vision of their business and to drive that vision forward, soon as you're at that higher level, you're managing people. So if you love managing people, do that. 

Lucy Bolan: And I think, you know what, I can really relate to that because personally for me, I mean, for, you know, my recruitment journey, um, I was saying, you know, you, the more senior you get, the more you're in those more leadership roles naturally, and, you know, managing, and you kind of get to, well, all I want to do is just do recruitment and it's like you, you know, what you're passionate about is brand and, you know, actually being, you know, part of that as opposed to the, Yeah.

Lucy Bolan: Bureaucratic sort of scenarios that we can end up, we can find ourselves in when we get in those leadership roles. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yes. And it's not to say that I wouldn't do one again if I was presented. It's just that at that moment. I, the craft for me was getting lost in, let's go back 10 years ago. Words like mobile first, social media, that's not craft, that's tactics.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah. Yeah. And we were forgetting the storytelling and the brand experience. And we were forgetting about the beauty of all the elements that craft a brand together to make it something that everyone wants to connect with. And we got into process. So as soon as people started talking about agile. They diluted marketing and brand to a process.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Sometimes it's not a process that can be done by Agile. A standup meeting isn't marketing. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just on that. And we've mentioned the word brand a few times there. I feel like I should be calling you like the queen of brand and, and, you know, Melbourne particularly, but one thing I know you're very, very good at, um, you know, is, is, as you've said, really sort of crafting out a brand strategy and being able to resonate with whatever that business is or whatever the message is with the customer.

Lucy Bolan: So. Is that again, something that, I mean, obviously you're very passionate about that, but in terms of, you know, how have you harnessed that now? Because I mean, we'll go on to it. You're pretty much running your own consultancy now, like you work for yourself. So I'm guessing the branding component that is a real sort of key.

Lucy Bolan: Sell it for you. I mean, that's, that's basically that's your service offering. Is that right? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yes. So I offer broadly marketing brand through to operationalizing the marketing process, as it were the tasks, the, uh, the strategy, the Intel to get people to take their product to market. But for me, when I'm talking to customers, I start with what is the problem that they're trying to solve.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I'm finding more and more, I'm getting a lot of startup scale up businesses. They have a founder or a person who has an idea and they're just not. They're kind of not sure how to move it forward. So they go to Fiverr or they get onto Canva and they sort of mock something together and it kind of, it is a little bit cut and paste and it's what I call an accountant's version of marketing.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So it looks nice, it does look nice, but I'm not sure what exactly it is that you're selling. So sometimes it lacks a single minded idea or it looks a little. Like things that they like rather than things the customer likes. So my raft has been moving in towards helping people articulate their propositions and then visualizing that proposition and then building out the journey of the brand.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So when I experienced the brand in this context or that context, what am I hearing, seeing, feeling? And how does, how does the person you want to sell to feel about that story? 

Lucy Bolan: Got you. Got you. So you've 10 years. Is that right? Yep. So how, what made you decide to go down that path initially? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Oh, it's really interesting.

Gabrielle Sheehan: An opportunity presented itself to buy a, to, to work with a founder of a very well known Australian franchise and to either sell her share or buy the. Her business partners shares our, and I want to mention the brand, but I will say that it was a massive project and I went through a process of learning how to raise capital, how to pitch, how to really sell and translate brand into a.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Um, a commercial proposition. So what is actually the value and where are you creating value for your business? 

Lucy Bolan: All this 

Gabrielle Sheehan: massive learning shift for me. And it taught me about the power of brand in terms of driving a multiple when you're selling, how it influences EBITDA, how it influences customer demand in a commercial tangible balance sheet.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Way, not just in a P& L, but in cashflow, in new streams, in why certain products should or shouldn't be developed. And it was fantastic. It was like giving myself a PhD in, in marketing in how do you buy, scale, sell. Real life experience. Yeah. And it was the most powerful. Uh, decision I've made in my career because it's changed the way I have conversations about marketing.

Lucy Bolan: Well, you've been there. So when you're speaking to founders or, you know, company owners. You know, you've been in that situation to a degree where, you know, commercially you're like, okay, I get where I would, you know, of course you get brand and marketing and strategy and all that stuff, but there's a real result that we want to get out of that.

Lucy Bolan: So, you know, you'll be asking exactly the right questions around, you know, well, what's your current revenue? Where do we want to go? You know, what's your margins like, you know, who you, you know, those. Perhaps dig a, you know, deeper questions at, I don't know, like not everyone perhaps goes there. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Well, I think in corporate you're in a large company and you're tasked with maybe the retail stores.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So you've got to get the posters up and the lamb toolkit and all of those things. Or you're working on a dam system. Your task might be social media. So you're getting only a sliver of the totality of all the actions that are required to build a brand, build a business and have brand be the translation of what the commercial plan is.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So brand is ultimately, there's a commercial strategy. And your brand is what people are buying, a belief in X to buy Y to solve X. It doesn't matter whether you're a global business or a micro business. They're the three things. Who are you selling to? Why are you selling to them? And what value are you creating for that person?

Gabrielle Sheehan: So why should they pay that price? 

Lucy Bolan: I was going to ask you, you've been doing this obviously for a very long time and you've been very successful in doing it. I mean, some of the brands you've, you know, had the. The luxury of working with, you know, some pretty high hitters, like, you know, and they're not all the big, shiny, big brands, like the brands that, you know, with startups and now have gone on to do some incredible things.

Lucy Bolan: Um, I'm sure down to your help, but how have you, like, I want to give some advice because obviously I'm seeing in the market now, there's a lot of people going down this path where they're wanting to tap into, you know, fractional CMO, et cetera, just because of obviously what we're seeing with the market and the economy, you know, what advice would you give.

Lucy Bolan: I guess, senior marketers that are thinking, I'm going to do it. I'm going to go for this. You know, what advice would you give them beforehand? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Firstly, you've got to know that you're now working with yourself. So there's not a big machine. There's no team. There's no someone that you can delegate a task to.

Gabrielle Sheehan: You're the team. Um, and when you go into a business, you have to work at, is there a team that's going to be there to support you or not? And what is it that their expectations of you and your expectations of them are? So you can't just drop in and say, now I'm in charge. So, okay. I've got 10 people, bang, bang, bang.

Gabrielle Sheehan: You have to be really clear about expectation setting. You have to be clear about what your scope is. You need to be very aware that you are not permanent. Mm mm You are interim, which means that they, that job or that task may be an interim task. Mm-hmm . Or they may be looking for a full-time person in that task.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So if you are. Just choosing a career of being interim, then ultimately you're, um, responsible and accountable. So take Raci, you're responsible and accountable for a moment. But you're not, the person who's responsible and accountable ultimately is a person who's hired you into that gig. Yeah. And it is a gig.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So you are really running a professional gig economy, so you're Uber marketing. So that's the first thing you got to context in your head. The second thing I'd say is build your networks and build your allies before you leave. So I've been fortunate that I haven't needed to set up a website because I've got a very extensive network.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Wow. People that would call me and say, Hey, I hear you're available or, Hi, have you got some time or what's your capacity or that's just built up. So it was all, I, I sort of didn't. I saw the first bit, which was to try and sell or buy into this national retail chain as an opportunity to learn something.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So it was sort of a learning phase, which people suddenly saw I was available and it all happened. So it was not by design. So I say to people now, because there are so many more people doing it, you have to make it more deliberate. Who do you want to work with? What sort of work do you want to do? Why do you want to do that?

Gabrielle Sheehan: What rocks your boat? Because you also have flexibility that you don't have when you're an employee. You have options to say yes to projects or no to projects. Oh, that doesn't really rock my boat. Also know what rocks your boat. So the first thing is, know why you're doing it. Build your networks, know what rocks your boat, be aware that you're working on your own, and be really clear that you're only there for a period of time.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Be the best job you can do. But don't ever think that that project will roll on and roll on and roll on. Hope it might, generally, if it's for a discreet project, that's what it is. So that's, they're the, they're the mindsets. And the one major piece of advice I'd say is believe in yourself. If that's what you want to do, but you've got to be entrepreneurial and you can be hungry and you don't have to drown in LinkedIn with a thousand opinion pieces.

Gabrielle Sheehan: They're fun, good, but you don't have to be an academic or the smartest person. 

Lucy Bolan: And so on an average, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but I mean, you know, are you sort of managing up to like, I don't know, four or five clients at any given time or, you know, do you sort of find you have to really be careful about how you're managing your time as well?

Lucy Bolan: Cause I know you're busy. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah, you do have to be careful because you have ebb and flow, so you have to also be good at managing your own money. A hundred percent, you can have 10 projects at once. And when you have too many projects, you either can't deliver the project or you, so you have to say no to a project because you haven't got the capacity or you have to engage other people.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Right. And when you engage other people, then you have to take on invoicing and billing for other people. So it depends on how big or how independent you want to be. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: So you have to know there's only X number of hours in the week and how many hours do you want to work? Because if you're working too much, you also can't build your pipeline.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, people almost always say some of that feast or famine, you know, you can be really, really busy for say four or five months. Great. And then as we all know, you get into the beginning of the year and it can sometimes take time to ramp up again. You know, people are on annual leave and it just takes time.

Lucy Bolan: You actually earn your income in 

Gabrielle Sheehan: nine 

Lucy Bolan: months of the year 

Gabrielle Sheehan: as a consultant. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. Yeah. And so do you feel like you're, I mean, I fit, well, just, you know, probably cause I feel like I know you fairly well, but you're quite confident around exactly what your areas of expertise are when we talk about marketing, is that safe to say?

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yep. Yep. So very clear. And the other thing I do is to maintain my skillset because you're working on your own. It's not like I'm bouncing ideas off anyone else. I meet up with other marketers to talk to them about what they're working on. And I read and so, and I've just, I've just finished Matt's 

Lucy Bolan: book, Matt Jones.

Lucy Bolan: Amazing. I've heard good stuff. I was going to ask you what resources you recommend. So this is one of them. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I absolutely loved it. It very, very generous of Matt to go through his thinking and their process and how they work together as a team and then how they shaped the voice of their brand and what their brand rules and marketing rules were.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And it shows you that the concept of a playbook gets overplayed, I think by marketers. Yeah. I do think you have to know what your brand language and brand method is. So every brand with its own personality there, there becomes, when you're clear about who your brand is, there's clear do's and don'ts and there are clear, um, what I love about Matt is he's taken some old theories and he's given them a nice little refresh and a really lovely new lens on brand experience and around the role of the funnel or the lack of the funnel.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah. And look, I won't spoil the highlights because it's a really good read and it's. Beautifully entwined with the gin story. So there's bits, there's marketing bits, there's the gin story, there's cocktail recipes. It's a wonderful rate. 

Lucy Bolan: I love it. I was going to ask you as well, cause I know we touched on this right before we, we jumped on this, but conversations I'm having certainly with, you know, a lot of marketers at the moment have been around, you know, I'm going to call it.

Lucy Bolan: You know, where, where does brands sit nowadays? Because I found certainly last year, you know, with the economy doing what it was and everyone probably looking more performance marketing and, you know, there's quick sort of leads to sort of convert, et cetera. And in some cases people look at that and go, well, it's cheaper.

Lucy Bolan: We're going to do it easy. We'll get some quick conversions. I mean, I see businesses and I won't mention names, but independent retailers that are selling premium products. But one thing I really admire is they, they nail it when it comes to the brand strategy. Like they're talking about how the product's made, how it's developed, like why it's, you know, there's a night, there's an understanding why it's at that price point and they do it well.

Lucy Bolan: But I feel like I feel quite sad because I'm feeling like brands are moving up less away from that almost. And I feel like, are we now in this point a bit where. It's kind of like, you know, the bigger brand campaigns, I don't know, do we see them as often? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: I think the role of the 60 second, 45 second TV ad that was big theater and, you know, think back to this is a big ad for CUB, Kelton Drive, Beer and all those, and the British Airways ads and all those famous ads, they were great, but that's because brands didn't have a thousand channels to split their story across.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Um, yeah, of course, because you've got more channels, doesn't dilute the importance of knowing who you are and what you stand for, and there's one golden truth, no one ever went into a shop before performance marketing. No one went into a shop to buy a brand. They didn't know. You didn't actively go into a shop.

Gabrielle Sheehan: I define performance marketing is like having an A frame outside a shop, suddenly stumble across it. So when you're in search and you're in Google, you're actually actively saying I'm looking for. So you've actually made a conscious decision. So if you, if the person's searching and they're not thinking about your brand.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And they know they can get your brand, then your brands have no credentials. Then I go back to a, uh, old book and Hugh McKay wrote, which is, I'll come back to the name of the book. But anyway, Hugh McKay once said that people don't search for brands that are not on their shopping list. That was way before, or this is 30 years, 40 years ago, this book was out.

Gabrielle Sheehan: That rule has not changed. So performance marketing is the close, the sale, you know, you close the deal. Brand is opening the opportunity. You don't give yourself the chance to be open. 

Lucy Bolan: Then 

Gabrielle Sheehan: it's really hard to close and the close gets more expensive. 

Lucy Bolan: You want that 

Gabrielle Sheehan: to be cheap and cheerful. You need to invest up front to get people to fall in love with you first.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And then the golden thing about brand is it drives price and it protects price. Well, I would say always think, you know, 60, 40, if you, if you invest 60 percent of your time in getting people to love your brand, then it becomes very easy to use performance marketing as a clever leader. It's not a strategy.

Lucy Bolan: You mentioned, and we spoke about this earlier, you've got a couple of other books there, I think, recommendations that have really impacted you. And I think your learnings as well. Can you share them? 

Gabrielle Sheehan: Yeah, so I, when I went to London and I had my experience being there, I think I was at a golden time. So I was there at a golden time when I did a brief stint at TPWA.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And Apple was relaunched and PlayStation was launched. PlayStation 4 was launched. And I had the grand fortune of working with some incredible marketing thinkers who really inspired my career. I met a lovely man called Don Cowley who edited this book here, Understanding Brands. Right. Now it's a very old book because it was first published in 91 96.

Gabrielle Sheehan: It is by 10 people who do understand brands. It's an excellent, excellent read. And the topics it says on the back here, what is a brand? What makes good brand advertising? What makes good brand packaging? How to value a brand and how to think about international branding. So that's, love it. The second one is, this is a first edition of Eat Big Fish, Eat the Big Fish.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Oh yeah. Yeah. By Adam Morgan. Adam Morgan was the, um, inspiration and the founding strategist behind the concept of challenger brands. Oh, that would be really interesting. So he authored this book and created eight rules of challenger brands and that's when we had an era of. Orange Teleco and Lime and we had Goldfish Credit Card and we had all these wacky, crazy sort of out there stuff.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And people were just disrupting rules and breaking rules left, right, and center. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got to remember those days. Yeah. And TBWA went with disruption as a concept and Adam split out and created his own consultancy called Eat Big Fish. Ah, brilliant. Okay. That sounds really cool. Yeah. And now he collaborates with Mark Ritson with.

Gabrielle Sheehan: John Evans, um, systems one, eight big fish. So it's really worth, everyone should check out his website and check out the part inside and a few other books that he's written. Yeah. Amazing. The last one I think is a goodie, but an oldie is, um, Jack Trout's big brands. And it's because the rules of marketing haven't changed ever.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Mm. Mm hmm. Know your customer. Know that your product is solving their problem, place that they can access it, give it a price point that they believe is the right value point, price point for that product, promote it to them in a way that's going to make sure that all makes sense. Yeah. Those rules haven't changed.

Gabrielle Sheehan: It's just that we have more ways of doing it today. 

Lucy Bolan: Love it. And I think the call outs there, you know, really, as you said, I mean, look. The fundamentals of Brandon, you know, it's still the same. It's just, we've all got these fancy tools and resources and, you know, modern technology now to really sort of, you know, jazz it up and, you know, optimize it, as you said, for all these various different channels.

Lucy Bolan: So I think going back to some of those books, it's almost like the Bible. Exactly. You know, navigating gear, you know, the lighthouse of exactly. Okay. Do and don't, you know, keep you on the right track. Well, it's funny you say that because lighthouse is one of the 

Gabrielle Sheehan: principles of Challenger Brands. There you go.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I've not read 

Lucy Bolan: the book. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I'll just add one other thing, um, is as a young marketer, things aren't either or, they're and. So it's not have a market or have a creative team or use 

Lucy Bolan: AI. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: AI is another tool. So we just keep adding, add, add, add tools to our toolbox. And then as great, the greatest marketers in the world that I've ever seen is that they keep things really simple and they just pull out the tool they need.

Gabrielle Sheehan: So Apple was successful with their jobs, kept everything simple. The world was booming and getting more complicated and. Windows 97 launched and all these crazy things, he kept things simple when they relaunched. Their whole proposition was we're not gray and black, which was IBM. So they went, they launched iPod.

Gabrielle Sheehan: They, you know, very simple, basic ideas. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Gabrielle Sheehan: So keeping simple is a rule that will just hold you instead as long as you add, not replace. 

Lucy Bolan: I think you bang on. I think no matter what the product, or even, you know, in your case, like the service offering, I think it's, you know, a couple of things that you've mentioned.

Lucy Bolan: In regarding itself, you know, you're very, you know, you're very clear about what it is that you can offer when you're speaking to, you know, new clients or, you know, projects that perhaps, you know, from a peak business, et cetera. Um, and I think in general, just keeping it simple in terms of, you know, how you communicate with those clients, you know, also.

Lucy Bolan: Whether it's a marketing campaign or the product, you know, I would say I completely agree. It's going to make your life a lot easier and also theirs as well. And mainly, you know, the customer gets the message as well, a hundred percent. I 

Gabrielle Sheehan: mean, a recent example of something I've worked, a project I've worked on was the launch of instant scripts.

Gabrielle Sheehan: And Instantscripts was a small startup, a doctor, a tech gun, and we had a tiny little office of six people in South Yarra. So we had a product person, a marketing person, a finance person, and two startup people and some devs. And we took that and the marketing contribution was, how do you sell something like repeatable primary care?

Gabrielle Sheehan: And I was teaching founders how to keep it simple. I know you can do all of those things, but what is the person really need? They need us. The instant scripts, we were able to keep, keep it really simple. People need to be able to cut through the noise, give you a color. They need a simple icon. They need a simple language.

Gabrielle Sheehan: They need people who look like them in the comments. None of this is rocket science. We kept the rules very simple and created the essence of a new brand and just then made it big. So the first campaign was not at home. So summer holidays, not at home, but need the doctor. Yeah, it does. No, this isn't, you don't have to be creating a Khan award winning ad to create a powerful marketing.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, it's, it's really, I think, very true. And I think that's part of who you are. I think your messaging and the way you communicate to your clients. And I think that's probably why you've been so successful as a, you know, fractional CMO for the last 10 years in, you know, really pulling out these opportunities.

Lucy Bolan: Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. I have to say, I've really enjoyed chatting to you. I know Gabby, look, I'm sure there might be listeners that, I don't know, maybe find you on LinkedIn or go, Hey, I've just started a new business. You know, if you get any of those requests, I'm sure you're quite happy to chat to people.

Lucy Bolan: For sure. For 

Gabrielle Sheehan: sure. 

Lucy Bolan: And 

Gabrielle Sheehan: I feel like people should just, the, the gift that marketing gives the world or marketers should give the world is the ability to communicate. So please reach out. I'm always open to talking to people, having coffees. Doing what I can do to guide people, point them in the right direction.

Gabrielle Sheehan: Also, if there's someone in my network that they'd like to meet. I can't guarantee the other person wants to meet them, but I can guarantee you that I'll at least be, I'll 

Lucy Bolan: consider that as well. Amazing. Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. You're always just a delight to chat to, so I really appreciate it.

Lucy Bolan: Thank you. Oh, 

Gabrielle Sheehan: wonderful. 

Lucy Bolan: Thank you for having me.

Lucy Bolan: Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today, as with our guests, is invaluable. Thank you for joining us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Lucy Bolan: Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve, and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END

Lucy Bolan: Welcome to the CMO chapter Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of the CMO, this podcast is your backstage path to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever-evolving landscape of business.

Lucy Bolan: Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries. Behind the brand.

Lucy Bolan: I am absolutely delighted this week to welcome the wonderful one and only Shannon Barnes. Shannon, welcome. 

Shannon Barnes: Thank you, Lucy. 

Lucy Bolan: Shannon, I've had quite a few conversations with you. I think I more so the, the last year, and I, one thing I've always really enjoyed for our conversations is just, you know, your ability to, your enthusiasm, I think naturally and you know, your energy.

Lucy Bolan: And I think one reason I wanted to get you on this podcast with, I feel like you're gonna have. You know, you have that impact, I think, on people where you can really sort of say how it's, give a bit of advice as well, which is been looking for here. Yeah. And, and, and yeah, look, really, really looking forward to hearing what you've gotta say.

Lucy Bolan: So I'm gonna start by saying, would you like to introduce yourself? Please. 

Shannon Barnes: Thank you so much. And thank you for that lovely little preamble. Like it was very, very. So my name is Shannon Barnes. I am, uh, currently, uh, head of Marketing and Communications, um, at We Super and, um, but being pretty much had a career for about 25 plus ish years.

Shannon Barnes: So been around the traps, uh, a fair bit. Um, and, and I think that the, the key thing as well is to sort of start. When you, when I talk about my career journey as well, is that I've done a lot of different things. So I have not, I'm not a career marketer by any, uh, stretch of the imagination, but I've always been in roles that have involved, um, very, very much, you know, customer member outcomes, uh, very much around, uh, what does, what does good from a delivery perspective, but.

Shannon Barnes: Um, and then, you know, really focused on, um, sort of business supporting businesses with growth agendas. So I think that that's always been a theme regardless of the role that I've been in. Uh, that's certainly been a theme that's run, um, pretty consistently through the last, uh, 25 odd years. 

Lucy Bolan: Thank you for summarizing that and I wanna scale it right back to the early career, the early part in your career.

Lucy Bolan: Now, am I right in understanding that you started out in, is it agency sort of more that 

Shannon Barnes: started in PR back in the day where there were, uh, a number of big American, uh, PR agencies in, uh, Melbourne. And so I did, uh, PR at RMIT, uh, straight Outta school. So that was, again, I probably didn't really know what.

Shannon Barnes: He was. But, uh, one of my sister's friends had done the course and said, look, if you like, um, you know people, you're a good communicator. It's a. It could be a good option. Right. Uh, so I investigated that and, uh, was very fortunate to get into that course. Um, that was a, a, a pretty, um, hard process at the time to get into.

Shannon Barnes: Um, so, you know, obviously, you know, uni is uni you, I, I mean, I must say it's me. I. Probably did the bare minimum to get through the three years. Um, but you know, that's everyone's horses for courses. Um, but really that did really ignite my love for communication, for how do we disseminate a message? How do we actually make sure that people understand what we're trying to do?

Shannon Barnes: But also with the, with, you know, public relations, there's a commercial element. You're, you're pushing a, a narrative or a a, a product or a, um, a, a brand, uh, to, to. I. So, um, and this was back in the day when, uh, there was no email and, uh, it was phones and you had to call journalists and actually speak to people and be prepared that they might put the phone down on you or, um, actually just really lean in to building relationships.

Shannon Barnes: But you build relationships by giving them good stuff. So don't just, you know, where one of my. Early learnings was you can't be just give it to everyone and hope someone might pick up that. You have to be really thinking about what does that journalist cover? What's their interest? Have they have, they looked at this stuff before?

Shannon Barnes: And also clearly manage your client's expectations because everyone wants the front page or everyone wants the back page, or everyone wants the front page of the business section. Uh, the reality is.

Shannon Barnes: Do their expectations around.

Shannon Barnes: Is really essential to like, and again, that that stakeholder piece, helping your stakeholders understand what is the expected outcome for that piece of work. And this is what, you know, I always say, you under promise and over deliver. Yeah. That is the best position to be in, right? Um, and so yeah, that was the, the early days in, uh, pr.

Shannon Barnes: So I worked, uh, also for a, um, a com. It was actually called Gray Advertising, and they had a PR arm. And so I went into that, did a lot of envelope, uh, you know, uh, stickers on envelopes and name tags and guest lists, and ringing journalists and checking phone numbers and faxing media releases. But you have to understand the machine.

Shannon Barnes: You, you have to understand that all of those component parts feed into the end outcome that the client sees and the public sees. So, you know, I, I don't, I think that's really important work that you do as you are building and understanding the components of, um, a skillset that you are driving. Yes. You wanna be eventually the person that's writing the media release.

Shannon Barnes: No.

Shannon Barnes: Some grunt work and I, I don't think that that should be, you know, underestimated about how much you learn doing those component parts. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you know, when I look back at your career, you know, you have. You've done a lot, you know, you've had some great exposure working for what I would say some of Australia's top tier one brands within the financial services sector.

Lucy Bolan: So when we look at, you know, you, you've had, I, I mean are we, are we talking about eight, 10 years now, where you've been at that head of sort of GM level 

Shannon Barnes: been uh, yeah. Sort of be 10 years now being at that, that senior level and, um. Interesting over the 10 years of leading very different teams, um, with different levels of, um, uh, impact, uh, all, you know, all sort of, you know, I've led, uh, smaller teams, really, really, really big teams, very eclectic teams, more techie teams.

Shannon Barnes: More, sort of more business focused delivery teams. And obviously marketing, digital and comms have kind of been a constant sort of part of that journey. But yeah, it's been, um, I've been very fortunate to work with some really amazing companies, but also that those businesses have also, um, allowed.

Shannon Barnes: What they've seen me do in certain roles and have and able to then track those same uhhuh components. And it might be a completely different role, but those attributes still remain. And I think that that is really an important part of when you are recruiting your senior leaders, um, is actually thinking about what are the true attributes.

Shannon Barnes: You don't necessarily need someone who's assuming, no, that's not the right, that mightn't be the right person. You need someone who is going to be able to see the big picture, connect the dots for the team, mobilize the team, but importantly prepare, you know, provide air cover. Allow them to do their jobs and also get outta the way and, and support them from the side.

Shannon Barnes: You don't need to be in the detail all the time. Yeah.

Lucy Bolan: You know, there's individuals out there that aren't getting that from leaders, and so therefore they're lucky elsewhere. Yeah. 

Shannon Barnes: Yeah. And I think that that comes down to role modeling a lot, because I have been very fortunate to have some really exceptional leaders in my life. And I, you know, two of them are, are, are still in my life today.

Shannon Barnes: And even though I worked with them many years ago, and I'm still, and I've become, you know. And I've seen their careers also go from strength to strength. And I think what's core to that is that we both saw in each other something that we both liked, you know? Yeah. They saw in me attributes that would help them deliver to, you know, their goals.

Shannon Barnes: And I saw in them someone that could help bring the best out in me. And I think that is really when you find. The most perfect relationship is when you are both understanding that this is for mutual outcomes and that you both understand the strengths of what you bring to the table. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy Bolan: So always, because I, I find that, like from my perspective as a recruiter, I'm having conversations a lot with. You know, managers that might be at that say, we'll call it one twenty one forty mark, and they're still trying to find the fate and they're still, you know, working out, do I wanna be a CMO one day?

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. I mean, you know, some are cut for it and they absolutely wanna go for it. And some go, you know what, it's not for me. And that's absolutely fine. Yeah, a 

Shannon Barnes: hundred percent. Yeah. 

Lucy Bolan: Always had that drive and ambition. I mean, it sounds like you've obviously had some great role models as, as you've said, but I.

Lucy Bolan: It's like you've just got this whole boost of confidence, but in a good way. Yeah. Work for you. 

Shannon Barnes: Yeah. I would say that possibly I haven't always been this way. I've always. A real, I've always loved my work. I've always bought, I've always enjoyed the people I've worked with. I've always enjoyed the, you know, I've made it a point that I've worked for organizations that I could really get on board with and, and I love where they're going.

Shannon Barnes: Uh, the people piece is essential for me. I have to feel like it's. It's the culture that will bring out my best. Um, and therefore I can be my best. Um, so, you know, but I would say it was probably only, probably after I had, like, I've got three children, so I would think it was after I had my third. And I was really thinking, uh, around what, what does next look like, you know, with my career and my, I was product manager at the time Yeah.

Shannon Barnes: At a, at a bank. And I, I loved it, I loved the people I worked with and all of that sort of thing, but I was like, is there, is there an itch? Like is there something I'm, you know, I feel like, do I wanna explore something different? And when I made different wasn't necessarily, uh, you know, that organization.

Shannon Barnes: It was a more, I I was looking for a challenge. Yeah. You know, I, I had been a product manager, uh, for about 10 years. I had just covered every single retail I. Uh, including and also in business banking as well and enjoyed it because it was like running a little your own business, right? I love, love, loved it.

Shannon Barnes: And we were given a lot of, um, uh, support, but a lot of autonomy to do. Um, so it was a great learning experience for me, and I look back on that in very, very fond, fond, uh, uh, memories. Uh, but I do, I do think it was probably at that moment when you kind of, probably you are at a bit of a juncture, you know, uh, uh, where you can go, do I.

Shannon Barnes: Lean into this and push myself. And it might be a challenge for the family. I mean, I've got little people at that stage, a husband's working full time, you know, all of the normal, you know, things that a lot of people, uh, are going through. Um, but I was decided that I wanted to explore that. I didn't wanna ignore that little, you know, the little buzzing.

Shannon Barnes: Um, and, uh, I was very fortunate that when I moved to, uh, Medibank. Uh, I was, uh, I had a, a fantastic leader there, but she introduced me to someone who is now one of my, you know, most, you know, she's one of my favorite people. And it was, uh, under her leadership was where I think I really understood what was possible.

Shannon Barnes: And, you know, I really understood that I. She shy away from opportunities just because I don't, I I've never done that before, or, yeah. Oh no, I've, oh no, I, I've never, you know, that's, oh, I don't, you know, I don't think, I'm sure there's far more qualified people than me, the usual stuff that plays out in your head.

Shannon Barnes: Um, but I think under her, with her support, it was like, you know, she'd go. This team's coming to you, you are doing this, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh. Oh, okay. Okay. And it's funny that at the start you're a little uncomfortable and you're like, God, will someone turn around and go, why the hell is bring that stuff?

Shannon Barnes: You know? And you actually find out, no, not. No, no one is going, why the hell is this woman doing these things? Like, and then you do start building the confidence. And the more you understand a business, the more you can bring to the table, the more you can bring, um, other experiences that you've had to the table to help.

Shannon Barnes: Problems solve, identify opportunities, leadership, people, pe you know, that people piece. Yeah. Really important when you've experienced those things before you can bring them with you. 

Lucy Bolan: Uh, I've got a, a question and it, it might hopefully be not too much of a careful, but I'd love to get your thoughts on this one.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. I have a lot of individuals that, you know, I'm gonna say, you know, marketers that, as I said, are at that sort of mid range mark. Yeah. Certainly, probably more so at the moment. They, you know, I often say, you know, people aren't looking for a new job. They're looking for the right leader. Mm. And that's a lot of the time.

Lucy Bolan: Yes. And a lot of, you know, senior leaders, CMOs that I've had conversations with, they said, well, I've always not been afraid to ask the tough questions and interviews. Because it's all well and good saying Oh, but you know, you end up knowing what good looks like when you're going for interviews. Yes. But not anyone does.

Lucy Bolan: Yes. So in your experience, is there any advice you'd give to people that perhaps are interviewing at the moment, you know, and they're just trying to work out, you know, it might be an amazing brand, but is this person really gonna be the right one for me? Like, what would you say to them? 

Shannon Barnes: I, I, I, this might be controversial.

Shannon Barnes: I don't focus on technical skills. Okay. I, I assume if you've been working in marketing at a relatively sort of meaty business that you know what you are doing. I, I am assuming a lot. I know that, and things come out in, obviously in the chat because you obviously talk about the technical, but I don't hire on the technical.

Shannon Barnes: I.

Shannon Barnes: Uh, energy and perspective that they come with. Yeah, because I think the last, the worst thing you can do is hire a whole heap of people that are like you. Yeah. It's the worst thing you can do. I look for, uh, I, I, everyone, I'm assu like, you know, there are people that will have different strengths, right? I look for people that they'll have a different strength to me.

Shannon Barnes: So if I'm someone who is very. You know, sort of, uh, I operate at this level. Yeah. I'm not in the detail. I need someone who's in the detail. I can't have another person that's like me because the whole thing's gonna fall over. Right. And I look for really, uh, people that can make a connection. Because in our business it's all about relationships.

Shannon Barnes: It doesn't matter if you work for a bank, a superannuation company, an insurer, or you know, a technology company. It is on relationships and we call it stakeholder management or whatever we wanna call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's understanding people's drivers. If you can do that, you'll, you'll succeed. And I think that's the other point is that it's really under understanding that as it doesn't matter what level of the business you come in, either, like, I don't want people to think that that's a, a more senior.

Shannon Barnes: Attribute or or capability you, if you can demonstrate value and then you can think outside of the box. Even in a more junior role, I would say you are setting yourself up for success. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, yeah, 

Shannon Barnes: yeah. 

Lucy Bolan: I agree. And 

Shannon Barnes: take initiative. Don't wait for someone to tell you now. It mightn't, you know, be the right time and all that sort of thing.

Shannon Barnes: But if you have ideas or ways that you think we could do things differently, prepare schedule time mm-hmm. With your leader or, or a more senior co or a colleague, workshop it and come with a pitch. Come with a, like a through.

Shannon Barnes: It's just, and if they do, you probably shouldn't be there. Like you don't work with it, you know? Um, so I think there's something in that, like don't underestimate your thinking as well, even if you're in a more junior role, because what will get you from sort of that middle area, you know, in the, in the, in the whole hierarchy.

Shannon Barnes: Yeah. It's those little extra bits that you bring as an individual that will get you to the next bit. 

Lucy Bolan: A hundred percent. And I think that word initiative, you know, I've never known a leader ever in my career, ever say, oh gosh, you can't believe that person's just, you know, it was so inappropriate. You know, a good leader's always gonna be like, good on you.

Lucy Bolan: That's, 

Shannon Barnes: I love that. I love when people say, you know, I've got, um, someone in my team, uh, he's probably, uh, maybe two. Luck under a couple leaders. He reached out to me, had some ideas. I loved those ideas. We circled back, we've gone and talked to some other teams, and now we're now working around that. The genesis of Ike's idea is obviously blossomed, but that is a fantastic thing.

Shannon Barnes: Like someone showing initiative, someone showing that they actually are thinking broader than, than what they are essentially on their pd. Yeah, 

Lucy Bolan: absolutely. I'd love to get your thoughts. So I'm getting a lot of, of individuals at the moment that, you know, are really starting to, you know, think, okay, well, do I wanna be a generalist marketer or do.

Lucy Bolan: And, you know, we're looking at the future, the evolution of, you know, the CMO role. What's happening there? Yes. Um, you know, and I'm getting lots of different opinions around, you know, I've got graduate marketers that are coming out of university and they're all thinking social media. Yes. Social media. And so then what's gonna happen?

Lucy Bolan: We're gonna have all these, you know, social media and gurus everywhere. Yes. So on. What was coming outta uni, what would you say to them? Like, you know, is it best to just broaden out their expertise as much as possible? 

Shannon Barnes: Yeah. It's funny, right? Because, um, you know, when I came out of uni, social media did not exist.

Shannon Barnes: Yeah, yeah. Nor did you know, nor did, um, uh, really, I mean, the internet had started, but no one was using it for business purposes. I mean, no one had a phone unless you were a, you know. Use car salesman, um, you know, then, you know, and the phone probably costs about three grand or something. So, you know, uh, probably more than that, but you know what I mean, like, things have changed significantly.

Shannon Barnes: And that's probably, in my personal opinion, I don't think when you are first out of uni. That is your time to spread your wings. That is your time to get a taste of all of the component parts that come that, that make up that very, very, very broad umbrella called marketing. Yeah. 'cause it might be that you are more of a creative, it might be more that you are more of a content person.

Shannon Barnes: It might mean might, it might, um, that you actually. Data and insights, um, and, and, and all of the wonderful things that come out of that world, or you might be, um, someone that actually ends up using that as a segue into more of a digital role. 

Lucy Bolan: So I, 

Shannon Barnes: I kind of think when, especially when you are out of uni or even after your first, you know, first, second, or third role, um.

Shannon Barnes: Skip everything. A little bit of a go. Like, you'll, you'll have plenty of time to specialize, plenty of time. And I just know that that's one of the things that I loved working in agency straight after, um, uh, uni, not necessarily. Collecting all of my, doing all my time sheets and stuff, that was not so fun.

Shannon Barnes: But what it did do was give you a taste of a little bit of everything. So even though I was, I was firstly in PR advertising sort of adjacent. You know, we were doing everything from, you know, events to, uh, you know, really heavy media work to, uh, media training, which I used to love doing, um, help or helping with at the time I was on the side.

Shannon Barnes: Um, you know, uh, writing you really hone your right, your craft in terms of how you write and you communicate. And I think, and now, I mean, that's just now that was just my experience. And now I think about, you know, I've worked in operational roles. I've done deliv, like big, large scale, uh, program delivery.

Shannon Barnes: I've done, uh, I've had like a, a sort of a kind of a techie element to my role where I've had testing and environment management and, you know, it's like all of those things gave me a taste. Something that now comes together so I can understand technology. So I, I think that it's one thing anyone who who listens to this walks away with do not under, don't not underestimate the importance of understanding technology.

Shannon Barnes: Yeah. It is a technological world. You have to understand it. You have to understand your data. What does your data allow you to do? Not do? What do your system, what your mar, even your MarTech stack does? Mm-hmm. Does it do? What are the opportunities? How can you optimize? That for me nowadays would be a, I think that's a pretty much a, a no regrets skillset that really marketers, um, you know, regardless if you, uh, wanna be a social media specialist or a brand specialist or a, you know, or a content writer, you should really understand your tech ecosystem because that will help you bring your ideas to life in a far more seamless 

Lucy Bolan: way.

Lucy Bolan: Perfect. I think you're so right. Absolutely. And especially with our advances with ai, it's just gonna keep on evolving as we know, as we know. 

Shannon Barnes: And marketing will evolve significantly with those 

Lucy Bolan: developments. Absolutely. Is there any advice that, you know, you, you sort of look back and think, God, I wish somebody, you know, had once shared that with me when I was, you know, three years into my career.

Lucy Bolan: Is there anything, any words of wisdom or anything you sort of recap and go, I wish I knew that. Then? 

Shannon Barnes: There's a couple of things actually that I look back now and go, uh, that get. Being really good at delivering something, you know, an outcome with the best for the, you know, optimal for the business, optimal for the people involved and optimal for the end customer.

Shannon Barnes: Absolutely critical. So you have to get stuff done, you know, just full stop. Don't dither, just make it happen, right? Just get it done. That will get you so far. But then you have to, I remember, this is an another, one of my other second, my other favorite boss said to me, Shannon, I'm not recruiting you because you are good at, at getting stuff done and that you are good with mobilizing people and you're good with getting, you know, everyone on the same team and all that sort of thing.

Shannon Barnes: I am recruiting you in this role because I want you to deliver through others. You now are influencing. Providing the air cover, doing all of the senior stakeholder staff to allow your team, your direct reports and their teams now to deliver. She said, the skill that got you to this table talking to me is not now the skill.

Shannon Barnes: I want you to now, you know. Um, explore, explore different. So, you know, it's kind of that difference between when you go to the wa you know, the what, it's like, you know, you're a SME or you are a, you know, you really, you are known for certain being a problem solver or fixing issues and all that sort of stuff That will get you into the consideration set.

Shannon Barnes: Then you have to demonstrate that you can be the person that can empower others to then do all of the things that you used that you were known for. Right. Um, and I think that that was something at the time I remember thinking it was quite, I was kind of, kind of bit, a little bit extremely, a little bit, because I was like, but that's kind of my form.

Shannon Barnes: Like that's what I'm known for is like, you know, just, you know, get something's a bit of a problematic or whatever it was like, you know. Let's, let's get Shannon involved. You know, that's a big thing, right? Yeah. Um, but that's not necessarily the skill that will get you to the table. Mm. And the only other thing I will tell you, um, the share, which I actually even say it to my team today, is never fall in love with your own idea.

Shannon Barnes: Mm. Your idea can be the start of a bigger thing. Your idea will very rarely be the end game. So don't get so, so never double down on what you think is right, because it's a collective, one person cannot know everything. So understand and harness the skills and thinking and knowledge of those around you to build on that idea.

Shannon Barnes: And again, I think that is something that I still, I still, I mean, I think my family would suggest I don't do that, but I think I do that. So, yeah, so I think that Love it. That's really important component of when you are looking to stretch and innovate and uh, really, you know, sort of really had that, that that true blue sky thinking you are contributing to a.

Shannon Barnes: A broader set of ideas. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. And I think what you've said there is really gonna resonate with our listeners. Absolutely. And I think it's really worth words of advice. I love what you've said about not falling in love with your own idea. 'cause there's been times when I absolutely have and it's easy to get offended and Yeah.

Shannon Barnes: And also what happens, especially when you are quite person like I.

Shannon Barnes: What I bring to the, I can actually make people then just shut down. Like if I double down, in my opinion. Well, people are gonna go, oh shit, you know, she's so loud and she's so ated and she's not, she's not budging. That doesn't help anyone because what do I have done is essentially just take all of the oxygen outta the work room and not allowed everyone to just pepper in.

Shannon Barnes: You know, they're little, they're little nuggets because you know, I, you know, maybe it's a bit of a harsh learning. I probably have to learn. But, you know, that is something you have to realize is that you are a, you are a, you are bringing something to the table that you want others and you need to encourage others to, to, um, feed fading to and collaborate.

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. I just wanna touch on, uh, and, and probably pushing forward to, I guess, your career now in, in some ways, but when we talk about, I guess I, I made a lot of, you know, CMOs, et cetera, GMs executives, and, you know, there's a lot that, that have done a lot of work behind the scenes to really work on personal brand.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, I say personal brand, I'm talking. You know, they're in conferences or they're doing, you know, speeches, et cetera, and you know, the excellent networks is networkers, I should say. Is that something that you've had to work out yourself or is there any advice you'd give to anyone that's wanting to, I guess, be a bit more recognized externally?

Shannon Barnes: I think it's really important to, um, nurture your networks. So I'm fortunate. I've worked in Melbourne for the majority of my career. Lucy, you'll know this. Everyone knows someone who knows you. Um, I routinely will have someone reach out to me, you know, that I have worked with and go, oh my God. So just joined our business.

Shannon Barnes: You know, you.

Shannon Barnes: To really nurture the network that you cherish. Like I'm not saying, you know, be in contact with everyone. I'm saying the people that bring you joy or you know, you learn something from them. What I've learned as well is that no one ever says no to. Do you wanna, Hey, I'm, I'm gonna be in the city. We haven't chatted for ages, but do you wanna catch up?

Shannon Barnes: I wanna, you know, can we shoot the breeze or talk about, you know, talk about old days or whatever. People do like that. People wanna catch up with them, right? And I'm not suggesting that you have to do it all the time, but, but that is my networking, so I don't necessarily go to. Networking events or whatever.

Shannon Barnes: I do like, um, I do like the financial services. Um. Conference that, that gets run in Melbourne. I do like that because it's a bit of everything. Wow. It's techy. It's more customer, it kind of melds a lot of, um, different, like different component parts together, which I actually really enjoy and you know, obviously run into a lot of people at that thing.

Shannon Barnes: Absolute. 

Lucy Bolan: But really 

Shannon Barnes: for me, it's about my personal network and they're the net that's the network that I have cultivated and I have nurtured over the time of, you know, 25 years. Right. So. And I don't want anyone to ever be shy to reach out to someone and, and be just that, Hey, I saw I, you know, I saw this, you know.

Shannon Barnes: Shannon would love to, you know, can you add me to your network and let me, can we catch up? Or something like that. There is no drama. I'm more than happy to chat to people. Likewise, I'm very appreciative when other people are happy to have a chat with me, you know? Well, I'm doing the reach out, so, you know, I do think there's, there's that, the swings and roundabouts.

Shannon Barnes: You, you, you get back what you put in. Absolutely. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah.

Lucy Bolan: I guess you've mentioned, uh, a conference there, the financial services conference. Yeah. Any resources or even books even that you'd say, you know what, these guys, or this particularly was a real benefit for me, sort of as I've kind of got more senior or promoted. Is there anything there that you'd sort of recommend?

Shannon Barnes: Uh, it's, I, I'm probably gonna be really disappointing, but note, I think it's actually having a finger on the pulse of the world. We understand what is going on in the world, whether it is a state election or you know what's happening in Europe or the US or whatever. Actually know what's going on in the world is all I could stress because.

Shannon Barnes: That brings insights because, you know, we talked about AI before and we know all about, you know, um, chat GPT and then we obviously had, you know, the, the, the hoo-ha around, um, the Chinese version, you know, a week or so ago that crashed the market. Just know stuff, like you don't have to be an expert. Make it your point to understand the world and then what does that mean for your, for your job, right?

Shannon Barnes: Because all of these macro, global, um, uh, workings, yeah, they all disseminate, they all come into the Australia economy. They all then come into our business. If we're working in financial services, it absolutely comes down in some way, shape, or form. And even, and especially if you're, even if you're in retail brands, that sort of thing, even more so like how do you start under, when you start knowing more about the economy and what people on the ground are feeling and experiencing, that should change the way you are marketing.

Shannon Barnes: That should change the way you are connecting with your end audience. So yeah. I must say I would, yeah, I could not stress that enough, but, B, understand what's going on in the world and don't get your news from TikTok. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. Love it. Love it, love it, love it. I think, you know what, it's such a valid point because I asked that question to quite a lot of different leaders and, and there's some that, you know, have read, you know, specific books that go me was a real, you know, change.

Lucy Bolan: You know, it really sort of helped me out or whatever it was. I think you're so right. Sometimes it's the simplest thing and the simplest influences. Yes. And you think Right. Just, you know, getting commercial, especially if you're wanting to become one day the big leader. 

Shannon Barnes: Exactly. Understand what will impact your business.

Shannon Barnes: And it's not gonna be in a book that was written five years ago. Yeah. It's happening now. We are a part of a global economy. Now, Australia is very small in that global economy, but we still feel the ramifications, good or bad, with what is happening in other parts of the world. And therefore that definitely impacts the way you want to connect with in from your business to your end customer.

Shannon Barnes: And I just think that that's a really, you've, yeah, you've got to, you've got to understand how it all connects. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Shannon, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much. I just think you've got this energy about you and I know so many people are gonna really find this episode Really, really exciting.

Shannon Barnes: Oh, thank you, Lucy. It's been an absolute pleasure and thank you for making it. So easy for me. I've never done podcast before, so this is very exciting. You 

Lucy Bolan: nailed it. You nailed it. 

Shannon Barnes: Thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed it.

Lucy Bolan: Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared. Today, as with our guests, is invaluable. Thank you for joining us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming A CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Lucy Bolan: Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve, and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END

Lucy Bolan: Welcome to the CMO chapter Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love. Whether you are seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes.

Lucy Bolan: Of the CMO. This podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to really lead and innovate in the ever evolving landscape of business. Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand.

Lucy Bolan: I am absolutely delighted today to welcome Martin Kelly now. I have known Martin for God, I don't even know now, 15 years, years. Let's skip over. Skip over a long, long time. A long, long time. So I'm really excited and delighted to have Martin on the CMO Chapters podcast show. So Martin, I'm gonna let you kick off.

Lucy Bolan: Would you kindly introduce yourself? 

Martin Kelly: Sure. Um, my name's Martin Kelly, and from the accent you can hear originally from Scotland, been here over 20. 20 years now. I'm the fuel marketing director for Brandwatch. Though I do need to do the caveat, I'm speaking here as an individual, not on behalf of, of Brandwatch as all good, uh, market should say.

Martin Kelly: Um, yeah, look, I've been in the industry over 20 years now. Got my master's from Monash here, and then how, and I've. I jumped nicely, jumped around some different verticals, um, deliberately. So, 

Lucy Bolan: yeah, 

Martin Kelly: but that's where I am now. 

Lucy Bolan: Excellent. Fantastic. And so know's a bit of an accent there. We know from Scotland originally.

Lucy Bolan: I wanna, I, I, a lot of the, the guests, I've sort of, well, some of the guests I've sort of spoken to have originally, you know, they come from different countries, et cetera. So I wanna ask about how did you find, you know, you came here 20 years ago, so you've had to really work probably twice as hard, you know, to really sort of tap into, you know, building out your brand, et cetera, within an Australian market.

Lucy Bolan: So can you tell me a little bit more about that? It's a big question just to kick off. 

Martin Kelly: I suppose, and this comes down, so yeah, I, how I ended up getting here, um, long story, but, um, met an Australian girl, lived in London for a couple of years, then she wanted to move back. She'd been overseas for four years at that point.

Martin Kelly: So did, um, did at one point go, go back with her to the, the UK for the year. But, um, and then eventually I see, want to get into marketing, done a little bit in my undergrad. So then, um. Came back, did a master's at, at Monash, and, and finally sort of broke into the, um, the market space. Probably it is harder because you don't have old school friends you can tap into.

Martin Kelly: You don't have those people from the first two or three jobs to tap into that have all grown together. Um. A big one is then networking. Going to, like I, and I'm probably, I'll use the word network like 57 times in this podcast because I'm actually really passionate about it. The amount of people that go, like I remember going in like not lecturing, sorry, being just asked to go into a market society at one of the unis.

Martin Kelly: Um. It's probably now about 10 years ago now. Mm-hmm. From when I was working for a previous company and one of my things was, well, and there was a young guy and he is like, I really try to break into marketing, but I, you know, I've got no contacts. And I'm like, okay, so what have you done about that? Yeah.

Martin Kelly: And he's like, what do you mean? Now this is when every man, that's probably longer than 10 years ago now, every man, his dog was on Facebook. And I'm like, did you put a post on Facebook to all of your contacts is know anyone in marketing. I can buy me a or that I can buy a cup of coffee too. And he is like, no.

Martin Kelly: Now it actually worked out. He went to school with my nephew. Oh. So actually he could have had me. Yeah. You know, come out. Um, so part of that is then it's forcing yourself to network, which sounds ridiculous, but going to, to conferences, using like, I think part of it is the live stuff. Going to conferences, meeting up with people, knowing each other.

Martin Kelly: You know, staying in contact, even if it's the odd text message, if it's the, the cup of coffee type thing when you're, you know, if you've got contacts in different cities when you are there, you know, going, right, 

Lucy Bolan: yeah. 

Martin Kelly: Yeah. I at instead of, you know, if you're meetings at 10, flying in at seven and grabbing a coffee at the airport with somebody or, you know, close to, but it's not.

Martin Kelly: And a lot of time it's, it's not Ali type, you know, just you them on it. These guys are brilliant, these are guys are, they can give you some really good advice, but you've got some really good, you know, you can make some, some good friends at that. Absolutely. And then using technology, like what companies do you want to work for?

Martin Kelly: Who can you follow on LinkedIn? What advice can you get from them on LinkedIn? And if you can, the biggie would be trying to find yourself a mentor. You know, trying to find yourself somebody that you can. Meet once in a while and have that conversation. Mm-hmm. And I had one, um, a few years ago. I've sort of got, sort of got one now.

Martin Kelly: I don't think she knows she's my mentor, but I think she is. Um, and we catch up every six months, but I remember I was sort of starting to look for a, a job and I didn't have the confidence and I was always wary. And, um, I remember talking to the, this guy and I, and his line was, do you know what you're looking for?

Martin Kelly: And I said, I'll know it when I see it. He won. Yeah, he went, Martin, you are, you probably scared to take the leap of faith. And his advice was, you know, on a bit of paper, draw out and if the job's 80, well all, everything you're looking for and if any job is 80% of that apply and go for it. And I needed that.

Martin Kelly: I needed that kick in the butt. So, sorry, that's, I think I've sort of, but yeah, that's sort of some of the advice. 

Lucy Bolan: And, and so I mean obviously, I mean you, you really, I mean, I personally think I agree, you know, completely. Like I think networking is absolutely one of those major channels that I think, given that we've gone through covid, we've all been locked up.

Lucy Bolan: You know, we should absolutely be making the effort to be, to be more out there. So I'm guessing, given that you're such a big advocate for it, has, has actually networking really helped you in your career, like in terms of. You know, getting, say from one role to another or knowing somebody or getting, you know, how has that actually helped you?

Lucy Bolan: Like, 

Martin Kelly: uh, there's like a couple of basic things of getting the people you trust. Even just look at your CV and you would be one of those people that thank you, you know, seriously, like you, you said at that, and you're one of the recruiters that I totally trust. You're the one that I will send people to and they're, but you're also the one that, you know, if I need the advice of it might not be a, a role that.

Martin Kelly: That you're trying to recruit for, but it'd be the one that I pick up the phone and go after this situation. Mm-hmm. What do you, what do you think now? But also, yeah, if you take it back to the absolute basics of when you're looking, the person that sends you the text message going, well, we're trying to recruit for this position one, do you know?

Martin Kelly: Or two, do you want to apply? But it doesn't even have to be that direct. It can be the, I need to look at my, or probably the. I'm applying for a job with this company. They're about to eight me an offer. Um, do you know somebody that works there that I can have an enough, an offer worker chat to? Um, so I think it's all of those things, but it's probably also just the, the simple advice.

Martin Kelly: So again, the, the person I was talking to that I catch up with every sort of six months for, for lunch, um, some of the advice, um, that she gave me was, um, is about staying in a role. And she, she just interviewed Sunday and they had about 20 years worth of experience. They had two years experience, 10 times.

Martin Kelly: They just kept doing the same job over and over again, and her line was just make sure you're not in that situation. I sort, I had got to there, I'd, I'd done a role for about 11 years and probably for the last four or five was just doing the same stuff over and over again. So that's really helps. So I think it's, it's almost every box.

Martin Kelly: It's that, as I said, something is. So perfect. As we are looking for a marketer, can you help us? Yeah. To help 'em with the cv, to the unofficial references, to the, the general advice, so, yeah. 

Lucy Bolan: So how I wanna ask, so, and, and I, I, I've got an estimation in my mind, but how long would you say, how many years is it now that you've been actually as a like, marketing director level?

Lucy Bolan: Were you saying sort of like seven or eight years mark? 

Martin Kelly: Well, it's, it's sort of, yeah. So I say, well, depends on the title, but in reality, running the, the region generally and running the teams, um, probably about 10. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. I mean, I, I looked, I had a look at your career, you know, previous, obviously I, I feel like I know you quite well now, but I wanna ask, I mean, have you always personally had that ambition to get to marketing director or, you know, one day GM sort of stage?

Lucy Bolan: Or is it being the case of, as we know, you know, we get more experience, you go from another to another, to another sort of like, you know, I just wanna understand sort of like how ambitious you've been. 

Martin Kelly: Um, look, I, I, I've always been ambitious, but not crazy. Yeah. Ambitious. So I'm not the person that, you know, steps over the dead body to, to apply for the wrong Yeah.

Martin Kelly: Type thing. But I am, but I've also realized as your career goes on, there's a point where that, you know, that you just keep doing the same thing over and over again. In order for you to have time to do the bigger role, you need somebody else in to do the role. Now, that's not demeaning the role because some of those stuff I've loved and it's been really good, but you've needed to build a team and you've needed to get more experience, and you realize that the excitement, the, the, the thing that gives you fire in the belly, the one of you know, that new experience, the, the thing that you're stretching yourself.

Martin Kelly: You need a team behind you. Yeah. That's taking care of some of the stuff so that you can take that, that leap of faith. So I've, I've never been, you know, looking at wanting a team of 75 and, you know, crazy. But I've realized that you need to have team supporting you. You and everybody can can, can grow through one of my, um, big bug bear.

Martin Kelly: And it's something that I feel really passionate about. The, you know, when you're trying to mentor somebody through, but they, the you're not quite there yet. You're not quite there yet. I'm, I'm so against that. It's ridiculous because I've had it for a while in my career, so I'm very much, uh, okay. What are the, and I always had this conversation recently, and it was, um, with, with one of the, one of my staff and it was.

Martin Kelly: Let's, we've got the hard targets for the year, but what are our soft targets? Mm-hmm. Are gonna help us get our, our, you know, our targets and, and do of that. But then also on that progression, right? This is what we need to see. And, and, and it being a, a proper conversation, not a thing. Yeah. This is what you need to do.

Martin Kelly: It's, uh, okay. Can you present, can you do this? Can you take ownership of this? Can you manage this? Can you do this Right? At that point, I think you're here. You can do 80 to 90% of those, then that gives me some stuff to allow me to hand it over so I can do other things that are gonna keep me. So yeah, I think there's that.

Martin Kelly: Like, as I said, I've never been, I want, you know, 800 employees and you know that crazy one, but 

Lucy Bolan: yeah. It sounds like you've got a, a solid head on your shoulders in terms of, you know, you, you're ambitious, but you're not gonna like, you know, you, you're realistic at the same time. Um, I guess on that, it was something that she sort of dovetails quite nicely.

Lucy Bolan: A question that I do ask quite a lot of people is, and, and I know I've personally been in this situation myself, as we get more senior, you know, you get a team, you might start off with two direct reports and then you may go to five or might get to 10. And there's no, from what I understand, I mean there's no real, real like rule book in terms of how best to manage a team.

Lucy Bolan: So I mean, how have you sort of like, you know, really refined that from your perspective? 

Martin Kelly: Um, look, trial and error 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Martin Kelly: A lot of the time. And, and, um, but also learning from good managers and probably learning more from bad managers. That, that would be my one. So there's a couple of things where. I look back on, on my career and, you know, information.

Martin Kelly: Now not all information can be shared and we've all, we all have that situation, but there's a lot of times when you're like, you kept me in the dark about this for, you know, there was one about we're gonna launch a brand, and it kept getting delayed and marketing had got all the merch and we'd got an entire plan and we then kept updating the plan and eventually I, I sat in a review and just went.

Martin Kelly: Where are we at with this? And they're like, oh, we'll tell you when you need to know. And I went, I see dad system. That's not good enough. And they're like, what do you mean? I said, I've got merch that I've now spent money on. Watting, not Watting, but um, also when you decide, you know, 1st of June to launch it and want me at a conference on the 10th of June, that's not doable, sort of thing.

Martin Kelly: So I think it's that, but I think the big one is. Bringing them along in the journey. Yeah. Sharing information, sharing goals and objectives, working with them in communication. It's funny, I, I thought about this other day. I, I did, um, one job years ago and it was a, it was a, a six month contracting job and it became a bit a shocker to be honest.

Martin Kelly: And it was only sort of while later that I looked back and went, my manager never met with us. Never found out, gosh, happening in the right. Yeah. Really. And it, and it was one of those where we went and it became just ale. And it's that, so it's that communication. It's giving time to staff. Now there's also the flip side of let the staff get on themselves with you.

Martin Kelly: You're not, I had an old boss in London who I still think of and I learned a huge amount from, and he was like, you're the expert in this. I'm not, I'm not gonna tell you the job. If you screw up, we can, we can help you back. But just let them get, get on with it. What are their skill sets? So I think the big one is bringing them along in the journey, screening as much as you can, sharing the objectives.

Martin Kelly: And, but also, and I'm gonna call out and um, um, an old boss of mine, um, guy called Chris, and it was his line, which was, if you're not failing, you're not trying anything new. So having the culture of. We're gonna have a crack at this and we're gonna hold hands, and my line is we're gonna hold hands and jump off a cliff.

Martin Kelly: And, um, but it's that one of, let's take, and I'm not talking about stupid risks. I'm not saying you take your entire budget No. Yeah. Put not on the back of a plane or something. Right. A skyr type thing. But saying, do you know what? We've never been at this conference. Everything looks okay. We'll make the decision.

Martin Kelly: And if it's wrong, it's wrong. But let's not review in hindsight, you know? So, yeah. 

Lucy Bolan: And in, in general, I wanna understand from your, your point of view. You know, I speak to a lot of marketers, you know, coordinators, but also, you know, I'm gonna say marketing managers. Even though at that sort of like 1 20, 1 30 mark, who, you know, in their mind one day want to be at that, you know, 200 sort of mark, you know, gm, head of et cetera.

Lucy Bolan: Is there any advice that, you know, sort of top level that you go, you know, what, if you are seriously thinking about going up to the next step and going into, you know, that real sort of director or head of level, what advice would you say give those people? 

Martin Kelly: Like couple of things. So first network, uh, secondly study.

Martin Kelly: Um, be, be reading, but, and it doesn't always have to be marketing books, and I've got a couple that I chat.

Martin Kelly: And it's also listen to other things. Listen to different podcasts. Listen to different movies. Don't just be the guy that only reads marketing books because you'll learn more from a cookery book, or you'll learn more from that obscure, you know, the going for a bike ride. So, so have a balance in life. Um, and then the, the sort of more detailed stuff would be.

Martin Kelly: Understanding the da, the balance in marketing between data and art or science and, and art. It, it's the difference between them and the beginning. And probably one of my mistakes early on was not, not looking enough at the data. Now I've also seen people go too skewed purely at it and they're like, oh, I bet.

Martin Kelly: And you go, but we got these things out and there's the stuff that you can't track. You track what you can. Mm-hmm. And you do your best to track it and report on it. There's going to be someone that was at an event that moves to another role that gives you a different email address that suddenly there's a, and that we had one, we, I was at a conference last year and we got everybody that was scanned and it was perfect.

Martin Kelly: And literally I'm at my desk and one of the sales guys goes, yeah, Marty's, um, just behind me. He was the guy I saw present and I from. Hadn't downloaded anything but it went away or hadn't downloaded anything directly. So I think it is known the data. So you make an informed decisions. Oh, mm-hmm. Now there's, and also being able to question the status quo, being able to, you know, when it is, that market's rubbish, that market.

Martin Kelly: So a role I had and the sales staff wouldn't chase our, would not follow up MD with our free email address or Gmail, blah, blah, blah. And I did an analysis and went, there was, I think it was something like three or 400,000 worth of pipeline and a hundred thousand dollars worth of sales made from people that come in with Wow.

Martin Kelly: Last year. And they were like, yeah, but it's a waste of time. And I'm like, you really wanna leave that on the, on the, on the table. Um, so it's that, it's that balance sort of thing between, you know, knowing that, but yeah, the big one would be. Know, your know your numbers enough that you can make informed decision.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, yeah. 

Martin Kelly: But also people want to take the odd risk here and there. 

Lucy Bolan: I've heard that before actually from a few, um, you know, leaders where it is very much, I think initially you go into marketing, we've all got our areas for development and I think, you know, I know it's something that I'll put my hand up.

Lucy Bolan: I've had to, you know, get my head around p and ls and you know, numbers and, you know, I've had some very interesting conversations with my accountant that mean. Gobbledy goop in my book. But anyway, we get that. Um, in terms of, I guess one thing that I know can be sometimes a challenge and sometimes when it works really well, it's a match made in heaven is when marketing and sales work really well together, that that beautiful marriage, but as we know, doesn't, so what's your advice?

Lucy Bolan: You know, anyone who say. I guess what have you done in the past to sort of really merge that relationship? Because it can be difficult sometimes. 

Martin Kelly: Um, look, I, I've got war stories from when it hasn't worked. Um, and I remember at one point talking to, and I had to report into him, uh, but talking to the, the sales director about an event and he's like, staff up.

Martin Kelly: Really fancy that one. I went. It's in Tasmania in June, and they quite fancy going to the Gold Coast, but this event, the Gold Coast is terrible. Yeah. They, they thinks a lot of value in it and me going, can you prove it to me? Because at this point, and also it's my budget, so, um. A bit like the staff thing.

Martin Kelly: Bring, bring them on the, the journey. Now I am ridiculously lucky, um, by the moment at, at Brandwatch, and I've been since I, I started here. Um, great relationship with sales, very much cooperative, very much working, uh, together. I also make it clear that I'm not beholden Yeah. To sales. Um, but I take them as a, um, I take quite a, a.

Martin Kelly: So it's, it's taken them on the journey, but not be beholden to them and sharing information. I've worked for companies that, um, like I, I worked for one company and once a week I would literally just do a really quick update of this is what's happened the previous weeks. This was going on in the next two weeks.

Lucy Bolan: Mm-hmm. 

Martin Kelly: And I didn't think there was anything surprising about that till about four weeks in. And a couple of sales guys went, we've never known this. And I'm like, what do you mean you've never known? Like. How can you not have known that we're doing a webinar, we're going it a live event. We're doing that, you know, we're doing a mail out and he's like, nothing was ever shared.

Martin Kelly: So it's, but also being careful that sales are there to close business or to get people in the top of the funnel. So helping them as much as you can. Yeah, as well. Yeah. I think that that, um, and also being respectful for, for their, for their job. It's really easy at times. Marketers wrongly to be really arrogant and to my go sales.

Martin Kelly: I'm not in sales for a reason because I don't think I could do it. Alright. And I've got the utmost respect for people that do it. So, and I think maybe that helps me. Absolutely. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Martin Kelly: Um, so yeah, I think it's that. The mutual respect is working with them. It's bringing them on the, the journey, but it's also then again, non their targets.

Martin Kelly: One of, I think, one of the issues when sales and marketing fall out is when marketing brings its own Kool-Aid in the sensitive, some magnificent thing. That's the wrong market to the wrong people, to the, you know, like they, you should know. Like, you should make sure that you're aligned. So yeah, I think that's it.

Martin Kelly: You know who, what, why, when, when, how well we actually targeting the amount of people that is like, um, we're targeting these people, and the sales guys go, we're, we're targeting the wrong people. And you're like, oh, you need to tell me that. Yeah, we need to, you know, we need to fit agreement as I'm building the marketing plan that we're in agreement.

Martin Kelly: And again, then. Okay, guess what? 75% of our sales have come from this title or this region, or this state or that, you know, or this vertical or whatever. So 

Lucy Bolan: yeah. Yeah. Back it up. Yeah. The data component's really important. Absolutely. Um, is there any sort of, you know. As you've obviously developed, et cetera.

Lucy Bolan: Uh, I mean, is there any sort of resources specifically, or events or even I guess, thought leaders, if you will, that you've personally admired from afar that you would recommend our listeners also tuning into, or, or books, et cetera, um, that you think would be really beneficial? 

Martin Kelly: Um, I'm a massive fan of, um, the StoryBrand idea.

Martin Kelly: Um, and the reason for that is it's too easy for you to get caught up in your own information, and it needs to be, is it important to customers or, or not, you know, um, are your potential customers or not? So, you know, knowing that, uh, a warehouse has 40,000 widgets, nobody really cares knowing that they can get you something within an hour.

Martin Kelly: I about that, you know? Um. So the, the StoryBrand one, um, there's a couple, um, the first 90 days, so Forry starting a new job. I've shared the, and when this comes out, I'll share the image of it again. Yeah, brilliant. I'm a massive, massive fan of, of that. Um, the leaky funnel again, um, big fan of that book and, uh, the recent trout marketing warfare, that's one that I read once every couple of years to just keep my thought.

Martin Kelly: Um, those, um. Leaders wise, it can be everything. It can be the guy that, um, does atomic habits. I quite like him purely because it is that, you know, rather than I'm going to start running, I'm a runner. Yes. You know, and it's, it's, it sounds a little bit corny, but, um, I think also just marking wise, um, Sutherland at the moment, seeing a lot of stuff from, from him that makes total sense.

Martin Kelly: Um, like the, the one of Coke in, its. You would've thought the competitor would cook, would've been cheaper, larger bottle where Red Bull is. Yeah. You know, a smaller bottle and more and more, a much smaller can and more expensive. Um, I think there's that. And then there is just a, a general people that you see that do well for themselves in business.

Martin Kelly: And you go, can I, can I, Lynn? Yeah. A bit. Lynn. Yeah. And who? And again, that's about LinkedIn, you know, following them up or following them on, on social. So 

Lucy Bolan: yeah. Okay. Thank you. And I wanna ask a little, probably tap into more, so personal branding is another little real key point that I often, I feel like nowadays, you know, as we're getting more senior.

Lucy Bolan: There's, there's some that really thrive in that personal brand, and you go, well, I wanna be that person who's, you know, a panel expert, I'm a judge, or you know, I wanna be presenting at conferences. Then you get some that actually go, you know, I'm really not interested in that. It's just not me. But when we talk about personal branding, I mean that obviously means it's everything.

Lucy Bolan: How you portrayed in work and how you portrayed, you know, on LinkedIn and online, et cetera. Have you had to really work at that yourself or is that something that you've been quite aware of, that you've wanted to focus on? And if so, how have you done it? 

Martin Kelly: Um, look, it's something I've been aware of, but I've also had to, to work on it.

Martin Kelly: Um, so look, there's a couple of things. One, I do quite like presenting. That's why I'm on doing, doing this. Um, probably also, I think as you get a little bit older. I've seen a few people that have, I, I call it let the old man in. So then there was one guy we worked with, I'm, I'm definitely not gonna name names, but he retired at 60 and I was having a conversation maybe two years ago, and I'm like, he was only 60.

Martin Kelly: He looked like 75. Ah, like he just. He just, and, and as I said, I think he, he dressed all, he acted old, like everything, you know, he, he'd like, as I said, the, the old man in sort of thing. Um, I think it's also what do you want to do and where do you want to be? Mm. And how, you know, like, so if you are very much don't want to present, do wanna do any of this, that's fine.

Martin Kelly: If you do put yourself up for doing it. Uh, I've seen a, a, a thing, um, and a few socials that I really rate, which is. Your first podcast will be good, but it'll be hell. It'll be, and your hundreds will be a hell of a lot better, but you won't get up to the hundreds without, you know, it's Absolutely, yeah.

Martin Kelly: Putting yourself up there, like putting yourself up to, you know, even just purely present at work, you know, like, again, um, I go back to years ago at a company and we'd have a, I think it was a month, it was either a monthly or a quarterly management group, and I started to attend. Everybody else would take the report and just read through it.

Martin Kelly: And I knew I had to work on my presentation style, so I put together a PowerPoint and I would stand up in front of every dinner present and I would get feedback from somebody. I trusted the room and I different person we each time and when there was a speaking slot at at work, I put my hand up to it.

Martin Kelly: And it's not just that. When can you do that? When have you got offered a podcast? You, you take it on, can you Now you always dip your toe in the water. Yeah. Don't go from, I've never spoken at work to suddenly in front of 5,000. Right. But can you come on a webinar and do special comments on it? Can you be on a, a panel, on a, at a conference, or, you know, a five minute intro?

Martin Kelly: Can you simply introduce people at, at lunch or, you know, something like that. Like, dip your toe in the water, make it a. A journey type thing. And then there is a point where you need to give yourself a break. So they, they've, again, this is going back to, to presenting. I had spent, and it was a couple of years, and I mean even things like, I used to have both hands up, like almost like a southern T-shirt.

Martin Kelly: And I used to, then I actually used to wear a belt and grabbed the belt. So that one hand was fine, two hands were, and the very end, and as I said, it's been about a two year process. And I presented at a, a staff conference and I got some advice from a guy, um, and yeah, really, really trust him. And, and he's like, like, Marty, um, you're not Marty anymore up there.

Martin Kelly: I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. And you know, when you're like, oh, right. He's like, everything you're doing dry. So just relax now. And theoretically you wouldn't lean on the lectern when you're presenting. 

Lucy Bolan: Mm. 

Martin Kelly: But. If you feel it's necessary, lean on the lectern. If you want, be yourself out there because you're ticking all the boxes.

Martin Kelly: You are almost robot, you know? So it's, yeah, it's that if you, what do you want out your personal brand? Where do you see yourself going? And then how do you get there? And I, a lot of that is speaking to people is, is funny. Couple of, um, last year I was, can't, I think I was flying Singapore. I can't, can't remember.

Martin Kelly: I talking to a couple of guys just on the plane and one of them was like, he'd went to, went to get a job, uh, internal interview hadn't got there. And I'm like, okay, so did you go back and say, how do I get there? Right? And he's like, no. I said, okay, can I suggest? And but you know, it's one of those, you don't want to be the old man.

Martin Kelly: I don't wanna be Grandpa Simpson. You're talking about my time. Yeah. As Steve, I was you. I'd go and say to him, okay, I'm here. I want to be here. Then maybe it is, you need to go back and do a math stuff. Maybe you need to do some crazy and you don't wanna do that. But also it means when that next job comes up.

Martin Kelly: And you go to the interview, you can go, remember you asked me to do A, B and C. I've done a B and I'm working towards C. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Martin Kelly: Um, so I think it is that, but yeah, personally it is something I've worked on. Yeah. Something. You need to work on it. And you also need to see how you come across. You need to be looking at a lot of things, but you also need to give yourself a break and just be yourself as well.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Martin Kelly: As I present from my son's bedroom, because, uh, there's no other rooms available in the house, so. Yes. 

Lucy Bolan: Well, you're looking there, there. Very professional. We're all good. We're all good. Um, something I just wanna pick up on there actually, that you've just mentioned, I think it's a valid point to address, um, and something that I know I've spoken about in the past.

Lucy Bolan: Is the feedback side of things. Something quite early on in my career, um, that, well, one of my directors we're going way back, like 20 years ago. She used to say to me, she used to say, whenever you get one promotion, always ask, or what do I need to do to get the next? And I used to think, God, is that not really cheeky?

Lucy Bolan: Or, and she said, well, no, because you need to be knowing, well, what's the goal? Like where's the target? Or else, you know, this whole succession planning. I also think with that, it ties into the feedback side of things because you know, at the end of the day, never ever be scared to ask for feedback. I think it's so important because, you know, it could be not quite the magical words that you wanna hear, but at the end of the day you're gonna really learn from it and you know, is that something, I mean, you mentioned that you asked feedback and I thought, well, curiosity to you, because I bet there's a lot out there that don't.

Martin Kelly: Uh, yes. I think you should be, the only caveat to that would be. Um, also listen to some of the feedback and see if it's relevant or not. Um, so something I, I worked for somebody at one point who would find fault in anything, and no matter what you did would concentrate on the name tag being wrong rather than the.

Martin Kelly: You know, 300 people at an event that was, you know, up there with, uh, Robbie Williams at um, net type thing, right? So I think there is that. It's getting the balance. I'm a massive fan of feedback. I'm a massive fan of what can we do, like doing the honest debrief. Okay. What done, what a. If you want that, then it's going to cost.

Martin Kelly: So it means this, so. 

Lucy Bolan: Mm, mm-hmm. We, um, 

Martin Kelly: and a couple of roles, we've done stuff where, you know, you've done a live event, there's name tags and there's like, can we not just get one of those printers? We can, they can, but they cost X amount. Yeah. So that means we've got X Life staff, or we've got X number of clients and it, that's the, the balance.

Martin Kelly: So I'm a massive fan of asking for feedback. I'm a massive fan. Exactly what I, you know, talked about before with staff of. Here's the goal, doing a constant review of them. Mm-hmm. And again, probably one of my biggest, and this is jumping back to the previous question, is making sure you're looking at the goals too often.

Martin Kelly: Set your goal from January and on the 31st of December, you get the dust off them and you're like, let's look at these goals rather than I said, bring up x amount of time to get you to this position. Um, so constantly been looking to how you can improve, constantly looking for feedback. But also be wary that some of the feedback you don't need to take on board I that there's also some times when if you're screwed up, you'd need to take it between the Yeah.

Martin Kelly: The eyes and, but Right. I won't do that again. But there's also times when you go, you really, or you know, you really giving me that feedback. Okay. And it has to be a look. Thanks. I'll take that micromanaging. Ah, yeah. Seriously, I, I want a couple that I think back on and you go. I did all of this and this is what you're concentrating on.

Lucy Bolan: Yeah.

Lucy Bolan: And just finally, I wanna ask, when when you look back at, I mean, I know you've got many more years to go, I have no doubt. But when you look back at where you are so far and look back at your career, I guess, what's the legacy and impact that you'd like to think? Well, you know, I know I, I made a difference there.

Lucy Bolan: Or you know, is there anything that really matters to you? 

Martin Kelly: Yeah, look, I think it's probably some of the staff that you've worked with and that you've, you've mentored them, and I think that's the, that's the biggie. But I think also some of the big projects you've taken on when you, you started and you went, there's no way we can do this.

Martin Kelly: And suddenly you, you'd do it. So there was a, a company, we did a, a massive event in overseas, and it was one of those, it was literally two years in the planning. And it was my baby. And you took it from, you know, really small to, and you look at that and you go at the start, I never thought we could do it.

Martin Kelly: So it's, it's having that, um, with it. Um, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Yeah. Or more you can chew and chew like hell sort of thing. But I think it's that, and I think you have made a difference. You know, you have moved things forward. One of the, I did one role and it was only for. A year in, I then caught up with, it was a contracting role.

Martin Kelly: Somebody was often maternity leave and I caught up and with, uh, it was one of those, a whole lot of people were moving and I, and I moved on. Um, but then I caught up with the new regional director and, um, the conversation was just being a real legacy here because you did set the, set the standards. So yeah, I think there's that, and I think you look back on stuff, but there's always a, you know, did you challenge yourself?

Martin Kelly: Did you. Did you hope? Did, did you take some risks? Yeah. Like, 

Lucy Bolan: yeah. I, 

Martin Kelly: I, I probably, I'll look back on the time where I wasn't taking risks, and that's the one where there's not a legacy generally at all. And there's very little, because you're like, there was a, there was a, you know, a fear culture or something where the ones where you go, right, let's go in.

Martin Kelly: And there's been a couple of times when I've went and it's almost been a blank bit of paper. Right. I need to build this from scratch. It's the ones that you go, okay. I took it from Yeah. Paper to, you know, humming along nicely. So, 

Lucy Bolan: yeah. And I think as well with that, you know, you made a valid point. I think it, it's when also from the top down, and I'm talking like, you know, owner, founder, CEO MD board, you know, they need to, you need to be in sync to also have that appetite to go, well, we're gonna think a bit more, you know.

Lucy Bolan: More around innovation and you know, what are we doing that the competition aren't, as opposed to a little bit of what I think is what happening is, is in the market, is is a bit vanilla. You know, how many businesses actually are taking risks right now? You know, we're, we're hiring direct for direct industries and 

Martin Kelly: I, I remember, um, looking for a couple of roles and one, um.

Martin Kelly: And it was ridiculous. One, they wanted somebody with 10 years worth of that industry experience. There was four of the companies, but they didn't wanna com, uh, have somebody from a competitor. And I remember like talking to the HR person, going, I. Can, can we just go through that again, just, just so that I'm, I'm, maybe I'm missing, maybe I, you know, I'd say there's a time to miss here stuff.

Martin Kelly: I went, you want somebody with industry experience, but not from your competitors. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, so it's, sorry. And it is that one of, and there was one industry I, I looked at and the, it was literally a merry-go-round. And I remember speaking, going Totally get that. Don't ever complain that somebody doesn't take, somebody doesn't do something different.

Martin Kelly: What do you mean? I went, what you doing? You know? Yeah. Just, just on the miracle route. So I think it is that one of, let's take some risks. I'm, uh, um, I quite like what Jack has done now. I've, I've seen, oh, hell bring, was online telling them that, you know, everything's terrible. Stink. At least they've done something different.

Martin Kelly: Yeah. You know? Absolutely. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Martin Kelly: Maybe just can be one of those ones that comes back and bites me when they go grow, you know? And then in a year's time and it's like, who thought that was a good idea? But, but again, being vanilla, you can't always play it safe. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. 

Martin Kelly: You know? 

Lucy Bolan: Well, Marsha, and it has been an absolute pleasure.

Lucy Bolan: Thank you so much for your time. Thanks a lot. I always enjoyed chatting to you, but I, I've really enjoyed it. It's been really great. So thank you so much. It's been great to have you on. 

Martin Kelly: Thanks a lot. 

Lucy Bolan: Take care. Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation.

Lucy Bolan: Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today, as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming A CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Lucy Bolan: Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve, and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END